CD transport - bits are bits?

[Frank Dernie]

Welcome to ASR.

I have overcome this problem by putting my music server on the other side of the room from my listening seat. I set an album to play, walk across the room, sit down, and get lost in the music.

I could never go back to spinning optical discs, the biggest problem with which is that they decay and can too easily be destroyed. I keep two backups of my music server, one made monthly that I carry to the office and lock in a desk drawer and another that I keep persistently up to date in a remote location via FTP.

A bit obsessive, yes, but better safe than sorry.

I have heard about this decay potential.
I have had discs which were physically damaged and couldn't be read at all by some transports, skipped on others but seemed fine on yet others but despite owning about 7000 CDs and having being buying them since the day the first CD player was available here (literally) I have never come across a disc with decay.

How are other people's experiences? Have I been inordinately lucky?

I have largely given up computer audio after over 15 years personally.

 

[Blumlein 88]

My dedicated music server computer is just that: dedicated to music. It sits in the audio cabinet with no monitor unless I turn on the TV which I only do for maintenance. I use Roon and read the liner notes on the tablet that controls it.

Then again I don't mind multitasking when I listen to music. Someone has to keep an eye on you all on a 24 hour basis!

I thought you only had to keep an eye on Thomas Savage.

 

[Thomas savage]

I thought you only had to keep an eye on Thomas Savage.

Amir finds looking at me soothing , it helps him cope with dealing with all of you lot who all are a great deal less attractive . ..

 

[tim_j_thomas]

I've never had any issues with any CDs. I certainly get the convenience of a music server, but picking out a CD (or LP) isn't that much work. I use Spotify if I want to put music on in the background.

I also find Roon to be fairly pricy. $499 purchases a lot of music

 

[Thomas savage]

I have heard about this decay potential.
I have had discs which were physically damaged and couldn't be read at all by some transports, skipped on others but seemed fine on yet others but despite owning about 7000 CDs and having being buying them since the day the first CD player was available here (literally) I have never come across a disc with decay.

How are other people's experiences? Have I been inordinately lucky?

I have largely given up computer audio after over 15 years personally.

Iv got a few from the early days of the medium that have tale tale signs of decay, but they still work!

 

[RayDunzl]

How does one assess a CD transport’s electronic/sonic merits?

I guess I plug it in and hit play and since none (as a transport) have made me take notice of one over another they all must be good enough.

At least until the player ages and starts skipping or has some other failure.

---

I'm on my third player - Tascam CD-200. A Marantz (1992) lost half of the signal swing in one channel. A California Audio Labs (1997) got skippy last year.

---

When I first opened a player and put my finger on the spinning disc, slowing it, and nothing changed at the output, I haven't worried too much about those implications for transport quality.

Since holding the optical cable near (but not inserted into) the jack, and it still worked, I haven't worried too much about optical cables.

Since putting a rheostat in the path of the coaxial cable, and trimming the voltage and finding it basically produced a pass/fail situation, I haven't worried too much about copper digital connectors. It too may have worked just holding it near the jack, but I'm not sure of my memory on that point of amusement now.

---

My current player/porter has a speed control knob - it's been useful to adjust old cassette tapes transferred to disc.

I assume it just slows/speeds the S/PDIF output clock, but haven't measured that to be certain.

 

[sergeauckland]

Some of you who may have visited an of the European Broadcast shows may remember Canford Audio's demo of AES-EBU being sent over two,pieces of wet string. They were wet because they went through a fish tank with fish swimming about. Perfect transmission.

When I got home, I tried sending S-PDIF through my body, from my left hand to my right. I had to mess around a bit to get the voltage levels up so the receiver could lock, but it worked. Once locked, it was fine. In my home system I use whatever bit of cable I have lying around for digital. On short distances as we have at home, everything I've used works fine.

Checking eye-height, it really has to be bad for it not to work.

As far as I'm concerned bits is totally bits. If the DAC does respond to the quality of the stream, then the DAC isn't fit for use.

S

 

[RayDunzl]

They were wet because they went through a fish tank with fish swimming about. Perfect transmission.

Fresh or saltwater species?

When I got home, I tried sending S-PDIF through my body

Hmm...

Did you turn off the amplifier to see if you could still hear the music?

 

[oivavoi]

I'm actually debating this point with myself, whether bits are bits and thats it. I use a sonos connect with optical out as my main source, going into a dac that doesnt reclock the spdif signal. Now there's this engineer guy with a PhD in Germany who has been doing upgrades for the Connect for several years (he apparently does it on the side, his main job is producing active speakers http://www.aktivgeregelt.de/Startseite.html).

There's no voodoo about it, he simply replaces the standard clock with a superduperbest clock with extremely low jitter on the digital output ( <1 ps). It's not prohibitively expensive, around 350 eur I think. Question is: is there any point in doing this? My brain says no, my neurotic audiophile self says to have a go.

 

[amirm]

Once you put that S/PDIF signal on a wire, there is no such thing as 1 picoseconds of jitter.

Outside of that, what matters is the analog output of the device. And without measurements of that spectrum we don't know if he has made an effective change or not.

I plan to get a Sonos connect and I will measure it before putting it to work (music for the workshop).

 

[oivavoi]

Once you put that S/PDIF signal on a wire, there is no such thing as 1 picoseconds of jitter.

Outside of that, what matters is the analog output of the device. And without measurements of that spectrum we don't know if he has made an effective change or not.

I plan to get a Sonos connect and I will measure it before putting it to work (music for the workshop).

Cool! Looking forward to that review, Amir!

He (dr Gert Volk) doesn't do any changes to the analog output. It's only the clock and the digital output (I think he does something with the power supply as well). Extensive documentation in German here: http://www.aktives-hoeren.de/viewtopic.php?f=39&t=1819

But isn't it correct that the clock in a device like the sonos connect will function as the master clock for the dac downstream, when the output is spdif and not usb? So that it can make sense, in theory at least, for that clock to be as good as possible?

 

[svart-hvitt]

I'm actually debating this point with myself, whether bits are bits and thats it. I use a sonos connect with optical out as my main source, going into a dac that doesnt reclock the spdif signal. Now there's this engineer guy with a PhD in Germany who has been doing upgrades for the Connect for several years (he apparently does it on the side, his main job is producing active speakers http://www.aktivgeregelt.de/Startseite.html).

There's no voodoo about it, he simply replaces the standard clock with a superduperbest clock with extremely low jitter on the digital output ( <1 ps). It's not prohibitively expensive, around 350 eur I think. Question is: is there any point in doing this? My brain says no, my neurotic audiophile self says to have a go.

Clockwork according to Grimm:

http://www.grimmaudio.com/site/assets/files/1088/pll_and_clocking.pdf

If a device needs a clock, it’s apparent that there is such a thing as a good clock and a bad clock.

Besides, implementation of a chip and architecture means as much - if not more - than the chip or the commodity architecture.

If this means a clock should cost $10, $100 or $10000 I can’t say...

 

[amirm]

But isn't it correct that the clock in a device like the sonos connect will function as the master clock for the dac downstream, when the output is spdif and not usb? So that it can make sense, in theory at least, for that clock to be as good as possible?

From pure engineering excellence, sure. As a practical matter we care if that a) makes a difference in the DAC output for the better and b) that betterness is above threshold of hearing.

I will be posting my measurement of S/PDIF purifiers soon. It will add some good data to this conversation.

 

[Wayne]

Iv got a few from the early days of the medium that have tale tale signs of decay, but they still work!

I have had the same experience for both data and music CDs.

 

[amirm]

I have CDs that are barely or no longer readable that were fine years ago. So they definitely degrade by just sitting there (depending on who manufactured them).

 

[Wayne]

When we started saving data to CDs both for back-up and to take data off the network servers (data storage was expensive) our tech staff advised us that SDs had an expected life of 10 years and at which time we needed to re-save on new data CDs. (of course the bottom dropped out of the price of network storage and the data was copied directly to the network) Last year I checked some of the data CDs and they were fine. Some were discount from "Office Depot" type stores and some were the Kodak "Gold Medical" CDs. Just my experience - your mileage may vary.

Edit: We started using CDs around early to mid 1980's --- If MY memory serves me....

 

[Fitzcaraldo215]

I have CDs that are barely or no longer readable that were fine years ago. So they definitely degrade by just sitting there (depending on who manufactured them).

Oh, oh. Some of my music CDs are now about 35 years old. I have a hunch they will still play, but I have not tried.

See, this is once again why vinyl LPs are soooo much better. They don't wear out by just sitting.

 

[Yorkshire Mouth]

Sorry to dig this one up.

Can someone clarify the following.

If I buy a CD and rip it, then play that rip back through my PC over USB to a decent DAC, have I effectively removed any ‘transport’ issues?

 

[jensgk]

Sorry to dig this one up.

Can someone clarify the following.

If I buy a CD and rip it, then play that rip back through my PC over USB to a decent DAC, have I effectively removed any ‘transport’ issues?

Yes
Because then it is up to the DAC to do the correct timing of the D/A conversion.

 

[Yorkshire Mouth]

Yes
Because then it is up to the DAC to do the correct timing of the D/A conversion.

Cheers, that’s what it looked like to me.