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CD Player / Transport with Digital Out

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Hey all,

As I just found - a CD Player without DAC is called CD Transport, which then has only digital outputs.

So, if taking in consideration lets say a Blu-ray player with only digital outputs e.g. Sony UBP-X700, will it provide the same quality as McIntosh MCT80 to my DAC?

If not, what I am missing here? :) Wondering what kind of benefit can be from 2000$ CD Transport in comparison to 200$, is this the snake oil case or there is something more to it?
Almost similar to your case of listening of hi fi audio, habb1. I'm also curious about this CD Transport only thing; also called a dedicated CD Transport, habb1.

I'm going to connect a CD Transport; most likely an Audiolab 6000CDT by way of a Blue Jeans Digital Coaxial Cable 6 feet. For now I have the Marantz DV6400 SACD/DVD connected with Coaxial Cable.

I asked a question to a retailer in my area in Ontario, Canada. Here is part of an important question, for me, anyway:

"I've done research, and it seems that a CD Transport only machine has the capability of slightly more accurate sound because of less Jitter, and more precise error correction. Is the application from the theory of less Jitter genuine, and audible, by the way?" Sales Support said yes.


To add to your query, in my case I have 3 different CD Players connected to my Receiver. These CD Players are from 3 eras, by 2 manufacturers connected to my Sony AV Receiver DH520 85W that I only use for hi fi audio. I am going to test, and compare these CD Players with a Transport, too; also for enjoyment of musical playback.

Other CD Players are a used Marantz SACD/DVD Player DV6400 (manufacture date of Dec. 2003), used Sony CDP-970 (April 1989) in very good condition from ebay. Sony 970 is connected at the Digital Optical Output; BlueRigger Optical Cable 3 ft. And a Sony CE215 bought from 1998; connected with traditional RCA L, R FosPower Cable. All work very well. I also have a used beaten up Denon 600F (1998) at a separate audio system; works well.

Maybe I can squeeze in a used defective AMC CD-6 by disconnecting a HK TD212 Cassette Deck; total of 5 CD Players whereby one is going to be a CD Transport only machine. Maybe I'm going to get that defective AMC CD-6 whereby the CD Tray is stuck, and won't eject forward repaired.

Then I'll discover what it is all about. Is it going to be the Hokey Pokey?
 
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jsrtheta

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In my case I have 3 different CD Players, from 3 eras, of 2 manufacturers connected to my Sony AV Receiver DH520 85W that I only use for hi fi audio. I am going to test, and compare these CD Players with a Transport, too; also for enjoyment of musical playback.


I'm going to connect a CD Transport; most likely an Audiolab 6000CDT by way of a Blue Jeans Digital Coaxial Cable 6 feet. Maybe I can squeeze in a used defective AMC CD-6 by disconnecting a HK TD212 Cassette Deck; total of 5 CD Players whereby one is going to be a CD Transport only machine. Maybe get the defective AMC CD-6 whereby the CD Tray is stuck, and won't eject forward repaired.


Other CD Players are a used Marantz SACD/DVD Player DV6400 (manufacture date of December 2003), used Sony CDP-970 (1989) with remotes (bought the remote separate for the Marantz) in very good condition from ebay. And a Sony CE215 bought from 1998. All work very well. I also have a used beaten up Denon 600F at a separate audio system; works well.

Then I'll discover what it is all about. Is it going to be the Hokey Pokey?
There is really no way a transport will deliver anything different than a CD player with digital out or a DVD player or a Blu-Ray player will.

Ever hear the expression "bits is bits"? It's true. It's 1s and 0s.
 
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There is really no way a transport will deliver anything different than a CD player with digital out or a DVD player or a Blu-Ray player will.

Ever hear the expression "bits is bits"? It's true. It's 1s and 0s.
Okay, jsrtheta; but check out my updated edited, and added comments, anyhow. Yes, for the most part I agree with you! Furthermore, I like to save money; because I had a bad, and odd experience with this High End thing!


I'll tell you what happened to me recently. I bought this EAD (Enlightened Audio Design) T-1000 CD Transport that was originally $2000 MSRP for US $576.66 total. EAD T-1000 was defective! I'm in Canada so anybody knows Canadians pay more; for $80, or $100+ I could have bought a new Transport! Instead I chose the EAD T-1000 because of the positive, wonderful reviews.


I was excited, and wanted to know what difference in, and within the music; even a very small amount together with a slightly better, more accurate, and clear sound was to be heard! And more detail, too. And obviously for musical playback of my slim CD collection, of about 90 CDs; as I'm to add to my collection, besides vinyl records, and a couple of pre-recorded cassette tapes.


Anyhow, the T-1000 CD Tray worked very fine. However, there was absolutely no musical playback! Nothing; when the Compact Disc was inserted label side down - because CD Tray is from a Pioneer PD10, or something like that - there was no sound of music! Not one note. How enlightening.



Fortunately, the ebay seller accepted this return of a faulty hi fi product. Moreover, a High End faulty hi fi audio product.



 
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jsrtheta

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Okay, jsrtheta; but check out my updated edited, and added comments, anyhow. Yes, for the most part I agree with you! Furthermore, I like to save money; because I had a bad, and odd experience with this High End thing!


I'll tell you what happened to me recently. I bought this EAD (Enlightened Audio Design) T-1000 CD Transport that was originally $2000 MSRP for US $576.66 total. EAD T-1000 was defective! I'm in Canada so anybody knows Canadians pay more; for $80, or $100+ I could have bought a new Transport! Instead I chose the EAD T-1000 because of the positive, wonderful reviews.


I was excited, and wanted to know what difference in, and within the music; even a very small amount together with a slightly better, more accurate, and clear sound was to be heard! And more detail, too. And obviously for musical playback of my slim CD collection, of about 90 CDs; as I'm to add to my collection, besides vinyl records, and a couple of pre-recorded cassette tapes.


Anyhow, the T-1000 CD Tray worked very fine. However, there was absolutely no musical playback! Nothing; when the Compact Disc was inserted label side down - because CD Tray is from a Pioneer PD10, or something like that - there was no sound of music! Not one note. How enlightening.



Fortunately, the ebay seller accepted this return of a faulty hi fi product. Moreover, a High End faulty hi fi audio product.




The problem you had could have just as easily happened to an EAD CD player, because they bought the transport mechanism for both from Pioneer. It's called a Pioneer Stable Platter. Other makers used them too, including Theta.

I don't know what the actual problem was, but EAD had lots of trouble with them. I sold that same transport to a guy online, and he got it DOA. The Stable Platter did not really catch on, perhaps because of this reliability problem.

Shame, too, because when they worked they were kind of neat.
 
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The problem you had could have just as easily happened to an EAD CD player, because they bought the transport mechanism for both from Pioneer. It's called a Pioneer Stable Platter. Other makers used them too, including Theta.

I don't know what the actual problem was, but EAD had lots of trouble with them. I sold that same transport to a guy online, and he got it DOA. The Stable Platter did not really catch on, perhaps because of this reliability problem.

Shame, too, because when they worked they were kind of neat.
Thank you for your quick reply, and enlightening answer on the EAD T-1000. Seller kept explaining that it was shipping; something had gone wrong with the process of delivery. Maybe shippers dropped the package. I don't completely accept that explanation. The T-1000 is built very well. EAD T-1000 is built like a tank! I'm serious; a bullet could dent it, but it'd be a military bullet. Also, it was very well packed!

I worked in a mailing company, mail room of a newspaper, pharmacy, liquor stores, and retail stores in the past; and a friend of mine has 3 times the work experience in shipping, and receiving. Especially when it says "Fragile", and do not drop, people handling such packages are careful.
 
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F

freemansteve

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However, whats critical is beyond the laser. The DSP and DAC is very important. Some folks here might have heard of the arcam ring-dac back then. I would say it was one of the things that made arcam famous.

No DAC in a transport though - isn't that the point of them?
 
F

freemansteve

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I would expect the same difference as between high quality expensive TT cart and plain inexpensive TT. Transport will likely have better quality drive and laser, very quiet power supply, vibration controlled chassis, very stable clock and the output capable of very fast transitions (few ns), that can reduce noise induced jitter, but requires careful characteristic impedance matching - not the best for average user. CDP's output swings slower (25-30ns), and has mass produced transport and electronics - not necessarily a bad thing, and much better buy for the money. I suspect that advances in jitter suppression in DACs and increased interest in servers and streaming reduced demand for expensive transports.
But with an external DAC none of this matters for a transport...
 

Killingbeans

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"I've done research, and it seems that a CD Transport only machine has the capability of slightly more accurate sound because of less Jitter, and more precise error correction. Is the application from the theory of less Jitter genuine, and audible, by the way?"

Depends on whether the "bad case" is audible to being with. If the noise floor is at an utter inaudibly low level before you lower it a bit more by switching to a transport, you'll not actually gain anything. It assumes two things; that it will have an audible effect on the analog output, and that it's a real problem that needs fixing.

Sales Support said yes.

Big surprise ;)
 
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Most of the current affordable models (affordable meaning less than a kilobuck and maybe less than two kilobucks--I haven't researched it) use a cheap Sanyo CD drive. These are actually CD players, meaning they are designed for real-time play at audio speeds, but they are still cheaply made to hit a low price point. The Audiolab is slot-loading so it's probably something repurposed from an automotive application (that's a bald guess). Most of the multi-format (DVD, BD, and CD) transports I've seen use computer drives, which are definitely price-point mechanisms and I think also have different operating expectations reflected in their designs.

Computer drives are designed differently, it seems to me, around a duty cycle of reading data as quickly as possible from the media, with no synchronization required and lots of buffered error-handling, but with only occasional use otherwise. Maybe BluRay drives are still not that, but I think DVD and CD drives surely are. Reading a lot of CD's into my cheap laptop has noticeably degraded the plastic tray mechanism--it has become more rattly and if I'm not careful it will toggle the electrical connection where the unit inserts into the laptop, which causes the BSOD.

I own a large number of CD's and even though I rip them onto my computer, most of the time at home I prefer to browse the shelf and use an actual CD playing device. I have two in the system at the moment--a Cambridge Audio CXC transport (into a Topping E30 DAC) and a Cambridge Audio Azur 640C. The CXC, which is a current product, uses the Sanyo drive. The 640C is older and uses a Sony KSS213 drive (still a price-point drive but more upmarket than the Sanyo). I have a number of others that are older and in various stages of repair, and work hard to sustain a playback capability. Sure, I rip my CD's, mostly to move them onto my phone and into my car. But the last thing I want to do while relaxing with music in the evening and sipping some Scotch is having a laptop in my lap. For some reason, tracking forums on my phone doesn't put across the "seems like work" feeling that the laptop does. Having a library (of music and books) is a sign of success in life for people of may age and background, I suppose, and I derive satisfaction from exercising it. At my work desk, even though it is in my home, music has to be separate from my work computer, on which such things would attract scrutiny.

All of my CD players work just find into DACs instead of using their internal DAC. But so far I've never been able to tell the difference, even with units going back to the 80's. I think the only CD player I own that lacks a digital out is my Naim CD5, currently and apparently indefinitely languishing in the fixit pile.

Rick "not interested in the own-nothing-rent-everything mode of modern living" Denney
Thank you for expressing your expertise, experience, and knowledge that you have shared, rdenney. If you checked out a couple of my posts later on into the 3rd web page, you are going to become aware of the trouble with the EAD T-1000 that I took to task; and an ebay seller blames transit.

Actually, I can't remember if it was in one of these web page topics from Audio Science Review, whereby an ASR member explained the
laser lens can fall off during delivery. Almost ridiculous to me. I have had more than a couple of DSLR, and SLR lenses for my digital, and film Canon cameras delivered to me by mail from ebay, and no such problem. Therefore, I don't actually get it.
 
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clearnfc

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No DAC in a transport though - isn't that the point of them?

I was replying to your post which started with this sentence.

"I'm betting the guts of most CD players and transports come from a small number of common sources"

You mentioned both cd players and transport.
 

Angsty

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I've used a CD player as a transport for better than 15 years now (multiple players, actually). Don't expect a dedicated transport to give you better performance than a decent CD player with digital out. It's possible that a more expensive transport will be better mechanically engineered, may last longer or may be more easily repairable, but don't expect audible differences. The CD error checking systems are quite robust for retrieving data and most DACs today are highly tolerant of jitter in the input, even a low cost Schitt Modi 3. Buy a more expensive transport for aesthetics, features, usability, or to impress your friends, but not for sound quality.

 

clearnfc

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I've used a CD player as a transport for better than 15 years now (multiple players, actually). Don't expect a dedicated transport to give you better performance than a decent CD player with digital out. It's possible that a more expensive transport will be better mechanically engineered, may last longer or may be more easily repairable, but don't expect audible differences. The CD error checking systems are quite robust for retrieving data and most DACs today are highly tolerant of jitter in the input, even a low cost Schitt Modi 3. Buy a more expensive transport for aesthetics, features, usability, or to impress your friends, but not for sound quality.

Yes, fully agreed.

IMHO, CD transports are more of 80s - 2000s where CD players and even DACs are still relatively new. For today, CD is considered well matured technology where you could have excellent performance for very little money.

One very good example as the use of computer CD/DVD drives in players!! These drives have matured to the point where you don't even a specially designed mechanism/laser to read your CDs, those $20 computer drives does it just as well!!
 

Angsty

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All of my CD players work just find into DACs instead of using their internal DAC. But so far I've never been able to tell the difference, even with units going back to the 80's.
I have to confess that my experience is the same. The only truly distinguishable difference between my external DACs and the onboard CD player DACs that I have found is output volume. Once volume matched, I can't reliably tell a difference. It was quite a letdown after the initial euphoria of buying a Topping D70s with stellar measurements.
 
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Thank you for bringing up this digital divisive, dividing topic, habb1.

Hey all,

As I just found - a CD Player without DAC is called CD Transport, which then has only digital outputs.

So, if taking in consideration lets say a Blu-ray player with only digital outputs e.g. Sony UBP-X700, will it provide the same quality as McIntosh MCT80 to my DAC?

If not, what I am missing here? :) Wondering what kind of benefit can be from 2000$ CD Transport in comparison to 200$, is this the snake oil case or there is something more to it?
 

garbulky

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Hey all,

As I just found - a CD Player without DAC is called CD Transport, which then has only digital outputs.

So, if taking in consideration lets say a Blu-ray player with only digital outputs e.g. Sony UBP-X700, will it provide the same quality as McIntosh MCT80 to my DAC?

If not, what I am missing here? :) Wondering what kind of benefit can be from 2000$ CD Transport in comparison to 200$, is this the snake oil case or there is something more to it?
You're not missing anything. I haven't heard any difference.
FWIW I actually use a dedicated digital audio transport PCI-express card on my computer that provides a BNC/COAX/optical output. It's called the Musiland Digital Times and is now discontinued.
 

sq225917

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I use an old audiolab cdm transport, 90s vintage with philips cdm pro 9 mech in it. Electrically fettled with new belts and bulbs. I have a nos laser removed from an unopened kodak pcd865, they'll outlast me
 
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There is really no way a transport will deliver anything different than a CD player with digital out or a DVD player or a Blu-Ray player will.

Ever hear the expression "bits is bits"? It's true. It's 1s and 0s.
Thanks, jsrtheta. Thank you very much for this short clarification of the main function of a CD Drive Mechanism. Therefore, a CD Mechanism is to pick up the zeros, and ones. Then these bits of digital off, or on are turned into a musical signal as they are to pass through, and converted to analogue by the DAC; a very well designed, and updated one, if possible.

Although I'm unsure, but if a more updated, and/or higher quality, robust CD Mechanism is inside the case; to revolve, its laser lens to pick up all the data from the Compact Disc, it is certain that musical signal is intact, and pure.

However, there are plenty of audiophiles who believe that such mechanical, electronic design, and engineering is not exactly as perfect in a CD Player compared to a CD Transport! If a CD Player also has digital Coaxial, and Optical, Toslink Outputs, then that signal is intact to go to the DAC, right? Their logical argument goes that a musical signal must go to an external DA Converter; then be amplified.

Conclusion of most hi fi audio reviewers: a CD Transport is better, and more efficient then a CD Player that can also be connected as a Transport to an amplifier, or receiver containing a DAC.

I don't completely understand their reasoning; besides they offer few logical, objective evidence for their claims. It seems that since they have higher standards; these audiophiles, especially hi fi audio reviewers have higher levels of hearing?
Are we not hearing something they can hear in the playback of most music?

If there is to be a very small difference, or improvement, then evidence provided by measurements, or a factor to be heard is necessary. Such a Philosophy is the case of scientific observations - that includes auditory conclusions. As we learned, and studied in science class to the end of high school, it is called the Scientific Method. It gets a bit tiring, because eventually it is about listening, and enjoying the music.

Conversion to analogue playback should not be very difficult by now; or somebody correct my argument if I'm not logical in perfect digitized detail.
 
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TheBatsEar

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Although I'm unsure, but if a more updated, and/or higher quality, robust CD Mechanism is inside the case; to revolve, its laser lens to pick up all the data from the Compact Disc, it is certain that musical signal is intact, and pure.
Yeah, you would think that. But it seems the lenses are more or less the same and so is the mechanics. And worse, even a bad mechanism will yield good results, thanks to clever encoding on CD and error correction information. To me it seems CD transports exist only to part good people from their money.

I mean, i can understand that people like nice things like well made cd transports, but let's not fool ourselfs into thinking those things are needed to enjoy the full information of the music.

Their logical argument goes that a musical signal must go to an external DA Converter; then be amplified.
But doesn't it go to an external DAC in both cases, the CD transport and the CD player used with an external DAC?

I don't completely understand their reasoning;
I don't understand their reasoning at all.;)

besides they offer few logical, objective evidence for their claims. It seems that since they have higher standards; these audiophiles, especially hi fi audio reviewers have higher levels of hearing? Are we not hearing something they can hear in the playback of most music?
That is the question, is our hearing defective, are they blessed with higher resolution? I thought so for a long time. I bought the pricey stuff, the cables, the tuning, all of it. Do you remember when we used to paint our CDs black? I do, still have some black CDs.

But never did i experience what they (the golden ears) experienced. Eventually i ended up here. :)

Science so far says no, they don't hear better, it has been shown time and time again that we hear differences when our brain thinks there should be differences.
Check out Tooles book, he list numerous references and original research into the matter of biases and how they fool us constantly.

If there is to be a very small difference, or improvement, then evidence provided by measurements are necessary.
It's not enough to measure that there is a difference, you have to prove it's audible in a proper blind test.

Consider the entire CD transport on a bed of feathers that dampen every vibration. And a regular CD player where this isn't the case. There is a measureable difference, no doubt. But that doesn't mean it's audible as well. In that case, my bet would be on no, it's not audible. So the measurement is meaningless for the case of the extreme audiophiles.

It gets a bit tiring, because eventually it is about listening, and enjoying the music.
Agreed. Get some good gear, let your hair down and enjoy the tunes.

BTW, welcome to ASR. :cool:
 

Vacceo

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I've used a CD player as a transport for better than 15 years now (multiple players, actually). Don't expect a dedicated transport to give you better performance than a decent CD player with digital out. It's possible that a more expensive transport will be better mechanically engineered, may last longer or may be more easily repairable, but don't expect audible differences. The CD error checking systems are quite robust for retrieving data and most DACs today are highly tolerant of jitter in the input, even a low cost Schitt Modi 3. Buy a more expensive transport for aesthetics, features, usability, or to impress your friends, but not for sound quality.

I have been using a Pioneer USB blu ray from my pc to the AVR using the HDMI of the GPU.

To be perfectly honest, I haven´t found a better transport than that. It is super cheap and I find no audible difference with a conventional CD player or transport.
 

TheBatsEar

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I have been using a Pioneer USB blu ray from my pc to the AVR using the HDMI of the GPU.

To be perfectly honest, I haven´t found a better transport than that. It is super cheap and I find no audible difference with a conventional CD player or transport.
Does the device itself emit noise? I have had bad experiences with bluray devices, they almost sounded like early cdrom drives.
 
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