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Catalogue of blind tests

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ahofer

ahofer

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ahofer

ahofer

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Spkrdctr

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99% of the DBT are from manufacturers and other companies that do not publish the results. If you are privy to the tests you can be considered lucky.
So far, (who knows about the future?) no one has ever been able to even come close to identifying any difference in interconnects, speaker wire or a properly running amp. All of the tests involving audiophiles have NEVER shown that anyone can identify anything except speakers in a DBT situation. 100% of the audiophiles have failed miserably. ALL of them claimed that the differences were HUGE and that any simpleton would EASILY pick out a difference correctly. When the time comes 100% of them all fail. No one has ever done it. Period. If anyone had ever done it it would be well known and advertised world wide.

Many on this forum say "Well if they can pick out a difference when listening intently with special music, that still would not mean it is useable for general listening. DO NOT open that door to unscientific thinking. No one has ever done it. Period. Do not give the subjectivists an opening. remember, 100% failure rate. I just wanted to bring out the big elephant in the room. All that high dollar stuff is for looks and appreciation. That's all.
 

Kalessin

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99% of the DBT are from manufacturers and other companies that do not publish the results. If you are privy to the tests you can be considered lucky.
So far, (who knows about the future?) no one has ever been able to even come close to identifying any difference in interconnects, speaker wire or a properly running amp. All of the tests involving audiophiles have NEVER shown that anyone can identify anything except speakers in a DBT situation. 100% of the audiophiles have failed miserably. ALL of them claimed that the differences were HUGE and that any simpleton would EASILY pick out a difference correctly. When the time comes 100% of them all fail. No one has ever done it. Period. If anyone had ever done it it would be well known and advertised world wide.

Many on this forum say "Well if they can pick out a difference when listening intently with special music, that still would not mean it is useable for general listening. DO NOT open that door to unscientific thinking. No one has ever done it. Period. Do not give the subjectivists an opening. remember, 100% failure rate. I just wanted to bring out the big elephant in the room. All that high dollar stuff is for looks and appreciation. That's all.

Which leads me to a question... If manufactures do so many DBTs of properly running amps, wire, etc, as to have a claim of "99% of the DBT are from manufacturers and other companies that do not publish the results," and if 100% of audiophiles are failing in non-manufacturer tests, then why are manufacturers wasting money conducting these many DBTs that they could put into additional product details or marketing that might generate more sales?
 

Spkrdctr

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They are not regular audio companies. You have the military and auto companies that did huge amounts of work in this area. A lot is contracted work to special engineering shops for serious expensive well run DBT testing. This is done not so much from the manufacturing side of audio to make sales (which it was for the auto companies) but just to get information for doing future research. The audio companies know some of this but pretty much all ignore it as it would kill any sales of any high end wires, interconnects or amps. There are bigger issues going on in audio.

I will talk about one easy issue. We are, as Amir and many other very good engineers know, very limited in our hearing compared to the extreme level of what we can test and measure. So I will make up the following example.

We measure speakers for how much of a voltage change to a speaker is audible, Lets say we find that it is .3 volt. Then we start testing other associated things like speaker wire. We find that in a 20 foot length of wire there is a .1 volt difference. We then start rating wires as voltage drop over a 20 foot length. We find that almost every wire made from .25 to $40 afoot all have between 0 and .1 volt drop. So, we can measure a difference very accurately but we have proven that anything under .3 of a voltage difference is not audible by anyone at any time. But, we still measure and report wires as the best being 0 volt drop and the worst being .1 drop. Everyone jumps on the wagon and has to buy the 0 drop wire as its "the best". In reality using either wire from the best to the worst makes no difference at all to what is audible. Then audio marketing steps in and all the high dollar wire companies advertise that you should buy their high dollar wire at $40 a foot as it shows 0 voltage drop. Plus the advertiser mentions, "everyone" knows (a lie) that the cheap junk wire that shows .1 of a drop sounds rough, veiled, and closed off. The expensive wire (that they are selling) opens up the soundstage makes it pristine and clear, you get downright amazing sound for only $40 a foot for wire. Forgetting that .1 is way below the threshold of anyone's ability to hear any difference.

Then people join in and say well, yes it isn't audible at all to have the .1 wire, but it is how the .1 affects the whole system. It affects the 40khz area of sound so it is most likely coloring what we hear. Even thought there is no way it is doing that. People just run with a "made up" theory and then everyone is back to "I must pay $40 a foot" or I will notice my highs are not right. NONE of the research shows that to be true. No one can hear it as proven by rigorous testing on and on. But the idea grabs hold in the marketplace and high dollar wires are are seen as some how better, when they are not.

So, in audio where snake oil is knowingly sold daily. Good companies start buying into some of the ideas. That is why I believe we should test everything and then decide if the results are showing any of it to be audible. Your brain, the single biggest audio issue, your room and speaker placement/angle have FAR MORE to do with good sound than any extreme measurement. Luckily on a site as rigorous in its testing methods as ASR is, "fooling oneself with BS" is kept to a minimum. Amir does a very good job on testing and letting the results speak for themselves. But we all need to keep our eyes open for weird stuff that tries to creep in, such as bogus theories etc. They are sneaky and so prevalent that they can sneak in if we are not on guard all the time.
 

magicscreen

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But why do you need blind tests? I cannot understand this.
You listen to a cable. What do you hear?
Then listen to another cable. And now what do you hear?
It is easy as pie.
If you taste a very delicious chocolate cake, are you unsure it is delicious or terrible?
Are you afraid about that your senses cheating you?
So you do a blind test as tasting the cake and tasting a dog shit?
Minimum ten times?
I I bet after that you will not feel a difference.
 

Spkrdctr

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But why do you need blind tests? I cannot understand this.
You listen to a cable. What do you hear?
Then listen to another cable. And now what do you hear?
It is easy as pie.
If you taste a very delicious chocolate cake, are you unsure it is delicious or terrible?
Are you afraid about that your senses cheating you?
So you do a blind test as tasting the cake and tasting a dog shit?
Minimum ten times?
I I bet after that you will not feel a difference.

Wow, that requires a very long response. If you really want to go into it, just send me a private conversation.
 

Wes

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But why do you need blind tests? I cannot understand this.
You listen to a cable. What do you hear?
Then listen to another cable. And now what do you hear?
It is easy as pie.
If you taste a very delicious chocolate cake, are you unsure it is delicious or terrible?
Are you afraid about that your senses cheating you?
So you do a blind test as tasting the cake and tasting a dog shit?
Minimum ten times?
I I bet after that you will not feel a difference.

a better analogy would be the blind tasting of wines - it can be very revealing

I've also subjected friends to other blind tastings - French moutards and etc.

it also seems that you don't understand confirmation bias
 

Frgirard

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But why do you need blind tests? I cannot understand this.
You listen to a cable. What do you hear?
Then listen to another cable. And now what do you hear?
It is easy as pie.
If you taste a very delicious chocolate cake, are you unsure it is delicious or terrible?
Are you afraid about that your senses cheating you?
So you do a blind test as tasting the cake and tasting a dog shit?
Minimum ten times?
I I bet after that you will not feel a difference.
Why abx? Because you do not listen your cable or eat BigMac but because you are haunted by a daemon called ego subjectivity.
 

Wes

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the old Stereo Review amp test from January 1987 is now available here - https://americanradiohistory.com/Archive-HiFI-Stereo/80s/HiFi-Stereo-Review-1987-01.pdf )

Using Maggies as the speakers, they found that "distinctive amplifier sounds, if they exist at all, are so minute that they form a poor basis for choosing one amplifier over another."

The amps tested included Futterman, Hafler, NAD, and a cheap Panasonic receiver.

I propose testing a First Watt vs. something cheap using HiRes music and some fancy speakers.
 

Kalessin

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But why do you need blind tests? I cannot understand this.
You listen to a cable. What do you hear?
Then listen to another cable. And now what do you hear?
It is easy as pie.
If you taste a very delicious chocolate cake, are you unsure it is delicious or terrible?
Are you afraid about that your senses cheating you?
So you do a blind test as tasting the cake and tasting a dog shit?
Minimum ten times?
I I bet after that you will not feel a difference.

Before 1970, French wines were unquestionably and unquestioned as the most superior wines in every category. Wines were typically not tested blind, but with the labels or names visible.

Then a slightly famous blind wine tasting was held. And held again and again over the years.

A summary can be found here:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judgment_of_Paris_(wine)
 

Wes

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I prefer the Oregon pinot noir rockin in the free world of Burgundy blind test, but o...kay...

LMK if anyone wants a list of known Burgundians who have already bought vineyards in Oregone ...
 

richard12511

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If you taste a very delicious chocolate cake, are you unsure it is delicious or terrible?
.

A more appropriate analogy would be: you taste one piece of chocolate cake with 11g of sugar, and then another with 10.99g of sugar, are you unsure that one is more delicious than the other?
 

Kalessin

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I prefer the Oregon pinot noir rockin in the free world of Burgundy blind test, but o...kay...

LMK if anyone wants a list of known Burgundians who have already bought vineyards in Oregone ...

It's hard to understand now what the world of fine wine was like before 1970. French wine was everything and everywhere. There were a few Italian wines of note, and there were the German specialties (Riesling, etc). American wines were at the bottom of only a few restaurant wine lists in the US, because most restaurants had no American wines at all in their selection. There were no attempts at selling fine wine made in regions of the US outside of Napa and Sonoma. Wines made outside of western Europe were curiosities, appearing in only a few bottle shops.

Blind testing absolutely changed that. And, similar to the audiophile world, there are those who bought -- and continue to buy -- based on the label, the winery name, the pricing, the scarcity, the luxuriousness of the packaging, the celebrity taster testimonials... basically everything but the actual liquid in the bottle.

By the way, I see a strong similarity in the marketing of audiophile accessories and the marketing of wine accessories. A simple waiter's corkscrew can be bought for under $15USD (or the equivalent in local currency) in any wine store almost anywhere in the world, and it will do the same job as a $200 corkscrew. Plain glass $2 wine glasses will hold the wine pretty much the same as those costing $100 per glass or $500 per glass. Decanters, funnels, bottle holders, magical gizmos, all kinds of things to enhance the experience, promising oenophile nirvana.
 
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Spkrdctr

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@Spkrdctr: I agree with you in general. However, if you change the LCR characteristics in the wire/ cable enough, especially capacitance, Macintosh believes you can send your amp into oscillation. That should be audible but not in a good way.
http://roger-russell.com/wire/wire.htm#resistancehigh

Well, if someone changes the LCR way out of whack from normal 12ga copper wire, then yes something might happen. Unless someone buys very expensive crap wire, any 12ga will do. Now, yes in the extreme high hearing of audible frequencies, measurements can show a difference. The difference is so small that it does not and will not ever be audible. The one thing I have tried to NOT say here on ASR is that just because something can be measured means that it affects the sound and is audible. I don't want to start a flame war. We can measure all kinds of differences that humans can't hear.
The biggest problem in my mind is the human never ending opinion that they are Gods. The give themselves God like abilities to hear things that can't be heard and are easily proven to not be heard. We are not Gods, not even close and have severe hearing restriction on us. Ask any healthy dog and they will tell you that human hearing is terrible! In a blind test all dogs voted two paws up (they didn't understand voting only once) that human hearing was awful. But measurements do tell us when something is so poorly made/engineered etc. to actually sound bad even to us humans. It keeps the snake oil and cheap rip off scammers at bay. Because of these measurements, "most" equipment has to be pretty good (excluding speakers) or it would never sell after Amir shows it to have pretty poor performance. Good performance is not all that expensive in todays world. So Amir keeps companies honest. Marketing lies ALL THE TIME, Amir shows the truth. Let the chips fall where they may.
 
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ahofer

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Spkrdctr

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Yup, as I have said ad nauseum on this site, there is no audible difference. Wire is wire unless a company screws that up with a weird box on the wire. Just yet another test showing that no one can tell a difference. Thousands of tests done with no one ever being able to reliably pick a difference accurately. I read some of the posts on the test and as usual, they started the "fall back" position that this test only proves that in this single test they could not tell a difference. I would not be so wishy washy. Since no one has ever been able to do it, it is ok to say there is no difference. Until someone can nail it repeatedly, we are safe in saying that super fancy high dollar speaker wires are snake oil. The claims they make for fancy wires are false.

In addressing the thought that this test only proves it on this one test I will give another example. If we test 1,000 people drinking a half gallon of laundry bleach and 100% of them die, it is safe to say that all people will die from drinking 1 half gallon of laundry bleach. Not that this bleach test only shows that in this one test, 100% of the people died. We do not have to keep doing the bleach test over and over to see if in one test one person actually lives. The objectivists constantly sit on the fence on many issues that are at the moment settled. I call it buying in to the subjectivists mind set. I wish the objectivists would stop throwing out lifelines to the debunked claims of the subjectivists. Many of our people here on this website do it all the time. What that does is give snake oil (marketing lies) a long life in the audio community.
 

M4RK5

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I read a lot about DBT and ABX testing on here, but a lot of the tests have been carried out a number of years ago, nothing recent.
There is a lot about cable trials, as long as you have a cable that measures well, and you don't have an amp that is fussy (thinking NVA and earlier Naims here) they should all sound similar. But regarding DACs and amps I am not convinced, ASR is a large forum with many contributors surely ASR could organise an ABX/DBT that will resolve this debate finally, take a large audience, 500 maybe, take regular folks not just those that support ASR or the audiophile community, it would help to remove bias from those that sit in either camp, a healthy mix would be good, take some modern DACs and Amps from the measures well and audiophile departments and perform a rigourous test, rather than repeat comments or quotes from tests made years ago with 5 or ten people. I realise that Covid would likely put a spanner in the works at this moment in time, but surely it is something to look toward the future?
 
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