Tube amps can be made good enough such that an improvement in performance is no longer audible. They can have high fidelity. I am not familiar with the Carver model, but my home-brewed circlotron type amplifiers with multi-filar winding technique (28 wires in a ribbon are wound on the core; some wires become primary, others secondary, the selection of which is the basis of a patent). compare favorably with my Bryston 4Bst, in a sonic sense, but of course are nowhere near the 4Bst when it comes to power output or distortion levels that are way below what is needed in order to be below audibility. Single ended types are not really low-distortion, and I don't consider them accurate, but with the right speakers, they can have a euphonic Big Tone, which of course is anathema to one-step-nearer-the-reference devotees. If it tickles the listener's nun-handles, that what counts. Of course, such a listener doesn't get to brag about sonic & measurement accuracy of his single-ended 300B amp and get away with it. The amplifier will fall flat on its face.
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Carver Raven 350 Review (Tube Amp)
- Thread starter amirm
- Start date
Looks is equally important to me if it is in the living room. Hence my TT is a Technics Linier tracking SL-M3. Look it up on YouTube.
And my DUAL 1229 TT that also lives in the living room has a custom American Walnut plinth.
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Some people (particularly on this site) conflate "High Fidelity" with "SOTA".
Life is good when you have a true audiophile for a dad.
Agreed, for many of us ole folk, there's nothing like the looks of cool tube amps in the system.
I can't deal with their drawbacks any more, needing 9+ channels of amps in a small Florida home.
But if I could, I just might light up the room with well designed accurate tube amps as I have in the past.
Though the vast majority use this path as a silly form of tone and distortion controls.
Yes, the anathema of High Fidelity and SOTA music reproduction.
Florida does not normally have winters, you don't have a use case for tube amps!But if I could, I just might light up the room with well designed accurate tube amps as I have in the past.
Though the vast majority use this path as a silly form of tone and distortion controls.
Yes, the anathema of High Fidelity and SOTA music reproduction.
Holmz
Major Contributor
Best way to disprove this would be to provide an example of a modern tube amp that's objectively high fidelity
There are many, but they are not Carver amps.
They are usually “a cut above” a Carver.
Audio Research Reference 160S power amplifier Measurements
Sidebar 3: Measurements
www.stereophile.com
Blenderguy
Member
Why is anyone really concerned about power consumption of specialized audio gear? What is the normal use case of a dedicated audio system? I don't know anyone that uses it naybe a few hours a day, unless you are retired.
Back in the tube days, when every TV was tube based, I never heard people mention in Florida that they would not watch TV during the summer.
My calculation shows that today, the stove and oven in the kitchen use way more power than any exotic audio power amplifier. Maybe some one can enlightened me that they don't use the oven in summer, or try to minimize the stove top cooking time in summer.
I have a class AB amplifer that has high high bias. It uses 180W with no signal. I use it maybe at most 2 hours in one day, maybe 3 times a week. I don't notice it heating the room. And anyone can do a quick power calculation to see that it used a trivial amount of power compared to other things.
Anyway is just my view that the heat and power consumption are not really a relevant point to consider for a dedicated audio system. I specifically excluded a home theater setup from this point of view, because strictly speaking it does not need to be hifi ir accurate to reproduce sound effects that in most cases do not represent anything real.
Back in the tube days, when every TV was tube based, I never heard people mention in Florida that they would not watch TV during the summer.
My calculation shows that today, the stove and oven in the kitchen use way more power than any exotic audio power amplifier. Maybe some one can enlightened me that they don't use the oven in summer, or try to minimize the stove top cooking time in summer.
I have a class AB amplifer that has high high bias. It uses 180W with no signal. I use it maybe at most 2 hours in one day, maybe 3 times a week. I don't notice it heating the room. And anyone can do a quick power calculation to see that it used a trivial amount of power compared to other things.
Anyway is just my view that the heat and power consumption are not really a relevant point to consider for a dedicated audio system. I specifically excluded a home theater setup from this point of view, because strictly speaking it does not need to be hifi ir accurate to reproduce sound effects that in most cases do not represent anything real.
I'm not sure what you were saying in that last sentence ? but in any case.
I run a 5.2.4 "immersive music" playback system here, (it can on occasion also play a movie). It's using 5 Adcom A/B amps and when running it can and does introduce a noticeable amount of heat into the room. I don't really give that much concern except not to fire up the HiFi just to get surround sound from TV shows, etc; unless they're something special. I know it does spin up my power meter a bit but as B B King sings that's, just the cost of being the boss".
Maybe we should shut down our AC & Refrigerators & Freezers? (Some would probably have us do that).
I have been wanting to ask the same question but figured that it was somehow off limits (because it seems so weird).
I can't see a Nickle to a Quarter a day in power being an issue.
Jimster480
Major Contributor
I don't think that power consumption is an issue unless it is a huge number. Most audio gear uses under 20W even for Hifi gear (obviously big speaker amps will use more) including DAC's or headphone Amps, pre-amps, etc... Most of it doesn't even use 5W.
I live in FL and we definitely use ovens and computers and everything else in the summer time. I also leave my Hifi gear on most of the time and use it as many as 80 hours in a week because I listen to it while I am working.
Overall I am not worried about power consumption as long as it isn't gross. Performance and longevity matters more.
Wow, my 1976 ADVENT 300 beats the heck out of that (in SINAD). The internal amps of my ADVENT 300 are another story BUT only the Pre OUT was ever used to send the signal to the NAD 2100 (or 2200) amplifiers. So the internal amps of the ADVENT are a moot point.This is a review and detailed measurements of the Carver Raven 350 tube monoblock amplifier. It is on kind loan from a member and (I think) costs US $4,750.
View attachment 225095
The 350 is not a bad looking amp. It has the same "orange peel" paint job of the previous Carver 275 amplifier I reviewed. At 42 pounds, the unit is pretty heavy. With all the weight in the back, the front handle is kind of useless when it comes to lifting it.
View attachment 225100
There is an XLR input but I believe it is for convenience and performs the same as RCA. I measured the DC resistance of the 4 and 8 ohm terminals (after the measurements) and realized they are both the same! Here I was switching back and forth between them.
Unlike the 275 amplifier, the fuses did not blow and the amp survived my sweep tests. Bias is to be set at "80" on the front dial and that was the case when I powered on the unit.
There is a gain control but you are advised to set it to max which is what I did for testing.
There is a flip switch in the front which changes the amount of feedback. I tested the amp in both settings.
Here are the specs:
View attachment 225121
Carver 350 Measurements
Let's start with high-feedback performance using XLR input:
View attachment 225102
There is copious amount of distortion causing SINAD to be dominated by it. At 44.1, it ranks as the second worst amplifier ever tested:
View attachment 225104
ADVENT 300
Receiver Audio Measurements
I opted to use the Aux input for my testing. I used an RCA cable to feed the pre-amp to power amp. Not sure if they came with a special shorting connector or not. Let's feed a 1 kHz tone to the 300 and see what comes out:
Distortion is below 80 dB but because we have a lot of power supply harmonics, it degrades SIAND to just 68 dB which places the unit pretty low in our amplifier rankings:
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Blenderguy
Member
I am saying that for a HT System, power consumption is something I would pay attention to. And the ultimate quality is not the primary goal, only that it can play loud. I would never consider buying class A or tube amplifiers for a 9 or 11 channel system. You would have to run several 20A circuits to the room. Of course some people actually do that
I hate to break it to you, but Class A and tube amps are a poor choice for any system, 2 or 30 channels. If very high quality accurate music reproduction is your goal, buy modern, well designed SS amps of either A/B or D design. Audio amplification has been a solved problem for many decades now and is mostly quite inexpensive. Start by reading this review, watching the video, and then follow up with some others of Amir's amplifier reviews. There's a lot for you to learn here.
Topping B100 Amplifier Review
This is a review and detailed measurements of the Topping B100 "monoblock" amplifier. It was sent to me by the company and costs US $299. I was surprised by the desktop/low profile of the amplifier. I expected something a lot taller/chunkier especially since this is a class B amplifier and not...
www.audiosciencereview.com
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The home I live in was built in the very early 1970's. All the wall outlets were then (& are now) 20 amp circuits with 20 amp breakers in the breaker panel. The wires were (and still are) copper. The only change I have made is to change the breaker panel from 100 AMP service to 160 AMP service and divide up the individual breakers better (+ add GFCI's where appropriate.
Yes, we do many amps. At least for SACD. Which is why (in my main system) there are 6 NAD 2200's, 2 turntables, 2 Reel to Reels, 2 cassette decks, a CD recorder, an oPPo 205 UDP, 2 FM Tuners (one for DXing), and 2 APT/Holman Preamps (one controlling the other) as well as other gear that rotates into & out of the system. Currently there is a bridged mono NAD 2200 for each of 2 4 ohm (custom built by me) downward firing ported subwoofers and one bridged mono NAD 2200 for each of the 2 main speakers at 4 OHM.
But, I have many more speaker & other configurations for different things that I want to listen to.
Such as when I want to run Quadraphonic:
Quadraphonic Synthesis
With two Holman Preamplifiers, you can synthesis and control four output channels from just two input channels.
Apply all your inputs to the first Holman Preamplifier. Use it for all your tone controls, filters and source and tape selections. Leave its Stereo Mode in Stereo.
Connect the first Holman Preamplifier's MAIN 1 output to one power amplifier and your two front speakers.
Connect the first Holman Preamplifier's MAIN 2 output to any line-level input of the second Holman Preamplifier.
Connect the second Holman Preamplifier's MAIN 1 output to the power amplifier for your two rear speakers.
And I know 2 other people that are not far from me that are similar with their gear. So, it might not be that un-common.
Rotate the second Holman Preamplifier's stereo mode control to L-R, and start by setting it to about unity gain or a bit less, and keep its tone controls flat. The tone and filter settings of the first Holman Preamplifier are fed automatically to the second Holman Preamplifier.
Set balance on the first preamp. Set front-rear balance on the Volume control of the second preamp.
Leave the power switch of the second preamp ON, and plug its power cord into a switched outlet of the first Holman Preamplifier. Now the power is controlled by the first Holman Preamplifier, too.
I also have 2 NAD 2100's. Many amps allows for many configurations (and for having different configurations in different rooms).
Quadraphonic Synthesis
With two Holman Preamplifiers, you can synthesis and control four output channels from just two input channels.
Apply all your inputs to the first Holman Preamplifier. Use it for all your tone controls, filters and source and tape selections. Leave its Stereo Mode in Stereo.
Connect the first Holman Preamplifier's MAIN 1 output to one power amplifier and your two front speakers.
Connect the first Holman Preamplifier's MAIN 2 output to any line-level input of the second Holman Preamplifier.
Connect the second Holman Preamplifier's MAIN 1 output to the power amplifier for your two rear speakers.
Rotate the second Holman Preamplifier's stereo mode control to L-R, and start by setting it to about unity gain or a bit less, and keep its tone controls flat. The tone and filter settings of the first Holman Preamplifier are fed automatically to the second Holman Preamplifier.
Set balance on the first preamp. Set front-rear balance on the Volume control of the second preamp.
Leave the power switch of the second preamp ON, and plug its power cord into a switched outlet of the first Holman Preamplifier. Now the power is controlled by the first Holman Preamplifier, too.
I can easily go 12 miles to another persons home that does similar things.
And I know one other that has many amps in a home theatre setup in his apartment.
So, it may not be as unusual as you think.
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Blenderguy
Member
I made this statement. Don't you think your comment is superfluous? But as whether it is a poor choice for 2 channels is a just opinion.
I have been reading reviews here for several years, not sure why you think it is important to buy something cheap? Some people maybe want a nice looking amplifier. Cheap amplifiers look cheap. Even some newer more expensive amplifiers with their plasticy facade look like crap.
There are smartphone telling you the time. They have been making digital time pieces now for 50 years. Some people will still buy a Rolex. I don't see a problem with that, do you?
It depends on your goals. If your interested in SOTA, very high quality sound, my statement isn't a opinion, it's a fact based
on easily demonstrable, repeatable, measurements and bias controlled blind listening tests. The vast majority of todays pure Class A and tube amps both have sound quality problems. They have been purposely voiced to sound a particular way and are not transparent to the source. If your more interested in
having your amplifier be a kind of tone control, they may be right up your ally.
I, in no way said anything about it being important to buy something cheap, only pointed out the fact that extremely high sound quality
can be purchased very inexpensively. Pride of ownership can mean a lot to a listener, it does to me, you just don't need to break the bank to obtain the very best there is in sound quality.
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I completely agree. And just want to add that some cheaper gear that has been reviewed here has been prone toward breaking down. There may be benefits to buying more expensive gear IMO. Guarantee, feature set, aesthetics and build quality all go into that. Even place of origin are legitimate reasons for people to make a decision. That said, it is entirely possible a $200 amp could last longer than $20,000 one before needing repair, but hopefully not. I’m only adding to your post to reinforce the fact that there is nothing wrong with spending $12k on a McIntosh amp. It’s end game and you probably get more than just a logo. And nothing wrong with cheaper alternatives that excel either.
Absolutely, everything you said here is 100% true.
As Benjamin Franklin is oft quoted,
“The bitterness of poor quality remains long after the sweetness of low price is forgotten.”
Holmz
Major Contributor
Wokeness maybe?
We now live where it is much cooler, but in the desert one can a BBQ outside or do salads and chilled soups like gazpacho styles.
And the caloric demands of mammals is largely driven by thermal in cold climates, so it is not like one needs calorie dense food as much in summer.
We have a gas stove, so it uses zero electricity.
The house internal temp generally requires a heater some of the day, but the back door being open for the pup to exist a doggy door in the screen door does not help to retain heat.
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