• WANTED: Happy members who like to discuss audio and other topics related to our interest. Desire to learn and share knowledge of science required. There are many reviews of audio hardware and expert members to help answer your questions. Click here to have your audio equipment measured for free!

Carver Crimson 275 Measurements

Greg P

Member
Joined
Mar 19, 2021
Messages
47
Likes
52
When I was in high school, we lived in a house built from plans provided by Sears, but constructed using locally sourced materials by local contractors. It was a pretty nice place. :)
I didn't know that they did that also.
 

mhardy6647

Grand Contributor
Joined
Dec 12, 2019
Messages
11,217
Likes
24,183
Yes, spent a bit of time there some years ago!

They were good solid designs. Another world....
The aforementioned Sears house has very nice (and original) interior woodwork.
The home was delivered by rail (flatcar) to... that Upper Valley town for erection and finishing on site. I am not sure how it was transported from the rail line to the lot, though.

Sears sold plenty of vacuum tube amplifiers, too, BITD -- both hifi and musical instrument amps -- under their own brand names (e.g., Silvertone) and with real brand names. ;)

Just to stay, kind of, on topic.
 

Greg P

Member
Joined
Mar 19, 2021
Messages
47
Likes
52
The aforementioned Sears house has very nice (and original) interior woodwork.
The home was delivered by rail (flatcar) to... that Upper Valley town for erection and finishing on site. I am not sure how it was transported from the rail line to the lot, though.

Sears sold plenty of vacuum tube amplifiers, too, BITD -- both hifi and musical instrument amps -- under their own brand names (e.g., Silvertone) and with real brand names. ;)

Just to stay, kind of, on topic.
Yes, sorry, I went astray.
 

Cougar

Member
Joined
Nov 26, 2021
Messages
88
Likes
22
There is more than 15W available from these amps if you're talking about higher THD and you stay away from low frequency content.

Anecdotally I know tons of people using 87dB sensitive speakers on 2-4W amps who are quite happy with the output level from their systems.

I have a pair of Clearfield Continentals by Counterpoint that are 87db 4 ohms. I can tell you, it depends on the room size and person's use to how loud any 87db or lower speaker will play.

I was surpised when I finally put my Latino VTA-120 power amp with tube rectifier into my system and sound way better/bigger. I was actually shocked how well the VTA-120 pushed them and when I push them really hard the VTA-120 didn't even stress! I did have a Old School Mullard GZ37 rectifier installed as well when I was playing them like that. I don't know if this made any diffrence but I was happy it didn't blow the rectifier like it did with a new JJ GZ34 the first week after I built the VTA-120 and hardly turned it up. I did eventually go to a single and then a double subwoofers but never used a separate crossover for this. I just set the subs at around 40hz with the speakers running in full range. With that combo the system gets pretty loud in my room of 14'X20' with furniture.

The VTA-120 is rated @60watts but really did a great job at pushing the Clearfield Continental by Albert Von Schweikert. So I regularly plays these at loud levels since I built the amp about 5 years ago and have had zero issues with it. I do run the biasing @.50Vdc with Gold Lion KT88 tubes. The output transformers do get warm but nothing crazy or where I can't touch them.

I am too wondering about the weight of the Carver amp cause my VTA-120 has got to be close to or over 40lbs. The transformers were the most of the weight comes from when I was building it and they went on first. But, I would love to try the Crimson 275 out and see what it can do in "Real Life" situations and not just look at measurements.

I did see some where these will work best by using a subwoofer/s as I know this well with my own system. So maybe the best way to run these amps will be with subwoofers and crossed over around 70-90hz? From what I have read on many of the forums now all over the place about this amp, I always see they do sound really nice and even replaced bigger and more expensive gear.

like I said above, I was shocked at how well my VTA-120 pushed them Continentals without any stress in sound or soundstage, never felt they were running out of gas and felt they could give even more but didn't want to push it to a crazy level. They were loud enough that we were having to really talk loud getting close to shouting to comment on the system. But just dont know what the THD was/would be at these levels. Sounds good to me compared to my other amps with way better distortion (Edge M8, Classe CA-400, and Electrocompaniet AW250). Also Bob Latino did suggest using a SS rectifiers in the VTA-120 for louder playing levels.

The VTA-120 with my DIY 2way Horn speakers with Radian 475PB-8 CD's and MCM 2963 15" woofers doesn't need any help from subs and has pleanty of powerful clean tight bass that can shake the house and not even turned up very loud either. :)

I would love for someone from Carver to come here and give a detailed explaination about why the output transformers are so small other than what some brief literature has to say. From what has been confirmed so far by some other manufacturers they are Edcor custom output transformers but that's all that has been confirmed. I know they did mention it in their literature about the smaller lighter output transformers, so they never really hid that from anyone if they were reading the literature.

Also, when we are playing music and at good volume levels...isnt the power output still in the 15-25 watt range? I know more power can lead to better presentation but what most of us think is the system playing at 60-100watts at loud levels is actually at more like 15-25 watts with speakers with decent sensitivity in the 89-91db. range? I do get the 75 watt spec and why people are upset but hasnt there been things like that in other manufacturers output claims? Amps not meeting there output levels and then find again it measured at 1khz for that specific output but in real life never actually hit it?

Also with the Carver Crimson 275 amps, So the output tranformers wattage/size, wouldn't there have been some serious amp failures out in the field of use by now? I haven't seen anything in that regards.

Not here to argue, just to bring some questions from a different angle and share my experience with my tube amp with lower efficiency speakers.
 

Cougar

Member
Joined
Nov 26, 2021
Messages
88
Likes
22
So are you currently running the LFT8B just with the Crimson 275 or are you still bi-amping with the Parasound?

I almost pulled the trigger on some of these ET speakers, but I was worried about my VTA-120 being able to push them. I hear they are one of the best sounding speakers .
 
Last edited:
OP
paulbottlehead

paulbottlehead

Active Member
Audio Company
Joined
Dec 22, 2021
Messages
209
Likes
843
I would love for someone from Carver to come here and give a detailed explaination about why the output transformers are so small other than what some brief literature has to say. From what has been confirmed so far by some other manufacturers they are Edcor custom output transformers but that's all that has been confirmed. I know they did mention it in their literature about the smaller lighter output transformers, so they never really hid that from anyone if they were reading the literature.

Also, when we are playing music and at good volume levels...isnt the power output still in the 15-25 watt range? I know more power can lead to better presentation but what most of us think is the system playing at 60-100watts at loud levels is actually at more like 15-25 watts with speakers with decent sensitivity in the 89-91db. range? I do get the 75 watt spec and why people are upset but hasnt there been things like that in other manufacturers output claims? Amps not meeting there output levels and then find again it measured at 1khz for that specific output but in real life never actually hit it?

Also with the Carver Crimson 275 amps, So the output tranformers wattage/size, wouldn't there have been some serious amp failures out in the field of use by now? I haven't seen anything in that regards.
The claims made by Carver are that he has both special transformer lamination materials that nobody else does and that the use of finer wires permits higher power output than would otherwise be expected. Both of these claims are not at all substantiated by measurements, and even the winder puts a sticker on them that says "15W". A patent on a material that can support higher flux density than grain-oriented silicon steel would be worth millions by the way.

Your point about actual power use is certainly valid, but ultimately it has very little to do with the measured shortcomings of this amplifier. The claimed rating was 75W at 1% THD from 20Hz-20kHz at either 4 or 8 ohms. The worst spot is 15kHz/4 ohms where the amp makes about half a watt. If the specifications said "75W music power" and gave some generic bandwidth numbers that would be a lot less controversial.

Regarding failing output transformers, what would the failure mode be? Running them to AC saturation does produce some horrible noises from them, but it would be hard to predict how that would ever manifest as a failure.
 

Cougar

Member
Joined
Nov 26, 2021
Messages
88
Likes
22
The claims made by Carver are that he has both special transformer lamination materials that nobody else does and that the use of finer wires permits higher power output than would otherwise be expected. Both of these claims are not at all substantiated by measurements, and even the winder puts a sticker on them that says "15W". A patent on a material that can support higher flux density than grain-oriented silicon steel would be worth millions by the way.

Your point about actual power use is certainly valid, but ultimately it has very little to do with the measured shortcomings of this amplifier. The claimed rating was 75W at 1% THD from 20Hz-20kHz at either 4 or 8 ohms. The worst spot is 15kHz/4 ohms where the amp makes about half a watt. If the specifications said "75W music power" and gave some generic bandwidth numbers that would be a lot less controversial.

Regarding failing output transformers, what would the failure mode be? Running them to AC saturation does produce some horrible noises from them, but it would be hard to predict how that would ever manifest as a failure.
I guess what I was wondering about failure/s is if the amp was being pushed beyond its limits on lower sensitivity lower ohm speakers due to the lower wattage OPT's wouldnt the OPT get really hot? something would have to give? I'm not sticking up for him/amp, just have some questions too about how other's with this amp say they are pushing it really hard with supposely undersized OPT's and nothing is going wrong? maybe this also has something to do with why he claims output tubes in this don't get really hot? Even if it's just a 15-20watt amp in disguise would it has some sort of failure when being pushed really hard as other's who own say they have and it still sounds good? i would think it would sound like crap once being pushed too hard to achieve those types of listening levels?

I would love hear hear in person listening sessions too to see if this amp is actually breaking up at these so called higher listening levels.
 

amirm

Founder/Admin
Staff Member
CFO (Chief Fun Officer)
Joined
Feb 13, 2016
Messages
44,376
Likes
234,513
Location
Seattle Area
I guess what I was wondering about failure/s is if the amp was being pushed beyond its limits on lower sensitivity lower ohm speakers due to the lower wattage OPT's wouldnt the OPT get really hot? something would have to give?
Well, the fuse kept blowing in my testing so something else is giving. :)
 

amirm

Founder/Admin
Staff Member
CFO (Chief Fun Officer)
Joined
Feb 13, 2016
Messages
44,376
Likes
234,513
Location
Seattle Area
Oh Ok. Hmmm, did the amp resume playing once the fuses were replaced?
Yes but per review, I used up all three fuses and that was with careful testing to not push it.
 

audio2design

Major Contributor
Joined
Nov 29, 2020
Messages
1,769
Likes
1,830
120V, 3A fuse, only putting out a fraction of that power and the fuse blows. All that excess power has to be going somewhere and that thing is not that beefy looking.
 

Doodski

Grand Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Dec 9, 2019
Messages
20,753
Likes
20,772
Location
Canada
I guess what I was wondering about failure/s is if the amp was being pushed beyond its limits on lower sensitivity lower ohm speakers due to the lower wattage OPT's wouldnt the OPT get really hot? something would have to give? I'm not sticking up for him/amp, just have some questions too about how other's with this amp say they are pushing it really hard with supposely undersized OPT's and nothing is going wrong? maybe this also has something to do with why he claims output tubes in this don't get really hot? Even if it's just a 15-20watt amp in disguise would it has some sort of failure when being pushed really hard as other's who own say they have and it still sounds good? i would think it would sound like crap once being pushed too hard to achieve those types of listening levels?

I would love hear hear in person listening sessions too to see if this amp is actually breaking up at these so called higher listening levels.
:facepalm:The amp is underpowered as per it's exaggerated rating, came with no chassis ground and had a loose screw floating around inside. What's there to like or make excuses for? :facepalm: In Canada a report of this and the gov would be on their butts fast. Maybe even take the product off the shelves, block import and ban it. That's how stuff usually is handled that gets in the bad boy books. :facepalm:
 
OP
paulbottlehead

paulbottlehead

Active Member
Audio Company
Joined
Dec 22, 2021
Messages
209
Likes
843
I guess what I was wondering about failure/s is if the amp was being pushed beyond its limits on lower sensitivity lower ohm speakers due to the lower wattage OPT's wouldnt the OPT get really hot?
Yes, the OPT is going to heat up but it takes quite a bit of time for this to happen. The thermal limit for modern transformers is very, very high and normally you'll see them rated in ways to keep them cool enough to touch without getting burnt. The whole heat question is not generally pertinent to output transformers though since typically the heat generated relative to the physical size of the transformer isn't particularly substantial. On the other hand, sustained saturated operation can cause damage to the laminations themselves, but finding actual instances of this occurring is rather difficult.
 

Doodski

Grand Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Dec 9, 2019
Messages
20,753
Likes
20,772
Location
Canada
Yes, the OPT is going to heat up but it takes quite a bit of time for this to happen. The thermal limit for modern transformers is very, very high and normally you'll see them rated in ways to keep them cool enough to touch without getting burnt. The whole heat question is not generally pertinent to output transformers though since typically the heat generated relative to the physical size of the transformer isn't particularly substantial. On the other hand, sustained saturated operation can cause damage to the laminations themselves, but finding actual instances of this occurring is rather difficult.
How is the ratio of power output transformers to power supply transformer stuff? Does the power supply transformer heat up in these units and does it have a thermal fuse?
 

AudiOhm

Senior Member
Joined
Oct 27, 2020
Messages
406
Likes
409
Location
London, Ontario, Canada
Yes but per review, I used up all three fuses and that was with careful testing to not push it.
Yes but per review, I used up all three fuses and that was with careful testing to not push it.
It looks like the fuse is in the neutral path, and the switch in the hot...

Ohms
 

Blackdog

Member
Audio Company
Joined
Dec 23, 2021
Messages
11
Likes
35
I missed that Ohms. That's the way it was done in the 40's and 50's. Even the venerable Dynaco ST70 is wired that way.
Totally incorrect.
I've recently come across two ST70 kit amps (latest knock off version) that were also made like that.
Both amps had two prong un-polarized power cords, and both had live chassis depending on which way the plug was inserted into the wall.
So it seems it's not a totally unheard of thing to do even today.
 

AudiOhm

Senior Member
Joined
Oct 27, 2020
Messages
406
Likes
409
Location
London, Ontario, Canada
As far as I know this may be fine for CE 240Vac/50Hz rated equipment but not 120Vac/60Hz UL or CSA.

Equipment like this reminds me of the Blue Circle stuff that never met UL, or CSA...

Ohms
 
Last edited:

AudiOhm

Senior Member
Joined
Oct 27, 2020
Messages
406
Likes
409
Location
London, Ontario, Canada
By BC do you mean British Columbia?

Ohms
 
Top Bottom