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Cartridge w/ very high compliance (curiosity only)

H

Heinrich

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When fiddling with my trusty Denon DP-37F I noticed that the base resonance of the tonearm was 14Hz. I added 10g to the headshell to get 10Hz. That implicates an effective tonearm mass w/o cartridge to be 4g, as the mounted Grado Green is listed to weigh 6g. (changed position of counterweight neglected.)

Considering that the tonearm isn't meant to carry extra weight for a recommended resonance of 10Hz I conclude that the compliance should match at 40 µm/mN, if the weight of the pickup is kept the same. Same issue with my Thorens TD126 Mk3.

I found only few and costly specimen that roughly adhere to the requirement (~6grams, 40µm/mN @10Hz). Do you know of a cartridge, from today or the past, that operates well with such a high compliance?
 
Heinrich said:
When fiddling with my trusty Denon DP-37F I noticed that the base resonance of the tonearm was 14Hz. I added 10g to the headshell to get 10Hz. That implicates an effective tonearm mass w/o cartridge to be 4g, as the mounted Grado Green is listed to weigh 6g. (changed position of counterweight neglected.)

Considering that the tonearm isn't meant to carry extra weight for a recommended resonance of 10Hz I conclude that the compliance should match at 40 µm/mN, if the weight of the pickup is kept the same. Same issue with my Thorens TD126 Mk3.

I found only few and costly specimen that roughly adhere to the requirement (~6grams, 40µm/mN @10Hz). Do you know of a cartridge, from today or the past, that operates well with such a high compliance?
Click to expand...
What signal did you use for resonance test? I get around 10-11 Hz with a 22 cu cartridge and mass of 6.5 (cart) + 4 g arm (Moerch UP-4). This is about the lowest mass ams ever made. It seems to me the Grado suspension is out of spec.
 
Mnyb said:
I follow this tread with great interest, I recently acquired a TD126 mk II with SME III arm .

I also want to know about recent high compliance carts . ( the Stanton 881S it came with is probably 40 years old )

I found this https://ortofon.com/products/2m-bro...PW9AxcLBt_5Z0eOO42LhWdAFXlpNX6#specifications only 22uM but with the right paddle my arm migth work out .

It weights about 7.2 grams .

Keep posting :)
Click to expand...
I now run MC cartridges but for the AVID/SME combo I used to run with MM's Shure V15 with JICO stylus is a classic good combo.
(I think there are still some JICO's around if you find a good condition Shure)
 
Sokel said:
I now run MC cartridges but for the AVID/SME combo I used to run with MM's Shure V15 with JICO stylus is a classic good combo.
(I think there are still some JICO's around if you find a good condition Shure)
Click to expand...
JICO are still around they have replacement , they plan on making a v15 replica ? They also have shibata replacement styli for the stanton i already have ?

But how faitfull are third party aftermarket stylys ??
 
Mnyb said:
JICO are still around they have replacement , they plan on making a v15 replica ? They also have shibata replacement styli for the stanton i already have ?

But how faitfull are third party aftermarket stylys ??
Click to expand...
Jico makes some on their own for Shure, have a a look at the range for V15:

Jico Stylus for Shure V15 series - Retrotone

The Shure V15 was considered by many to be one the finest moving magnet phono cartridges made. Sadly however the Shure V15 series are now out of production and good genuine Shure replacement styli are almost impossible to find, but with a new Jico stylus the Shure V15 can continue to give...
www.retrotone.co.uk www.retrotone.co.uk
 
Thomas_A said:
It seems to me the Grado suspension is out of spec.
Click to expand...
Your example matches well with calculations. I re-evaluated the resonance using a regular record, not too badly warped, and got to estimate 8.5Hz +/- 0.7Hz roughly from the spectrogram. Because of the square law in frequency versus compliance measurement errors propagate strongly (+/- 10% Fr => +/- 20% compliance). The Grado is pretty old now but not too far out of specs. It might be at 17.5µm/mN. Tracking is superb still.

I wonder, why the DP37F has this insanely light arm, and was delivered with Denon DL110 (Europe). The dynamic damping of the arm seems to struggle a bit with the doubled mass. Hence my question regarding some cheaper cartrige with high compliance. Alas, the AT "entry" series seems to be a little bit to stiff. The OM-type Ortophons are a too stiff and are lightweight also.
 
Sokel said:
Jico makes some on their own for Shure, have a a look at the range for V15:

Jico Stylus for Shure V15 series - Retrotone

The Shure V15 was considered by many to be one the finest moving magnet phono cartridges made. Sadly however the Shure V15 series are now out of production and good genuine Shure replacement styli are almost impossible to find, but with a new Jico stylus the Shure V15 can continue to give...
www.retrotone.co.uk www.retrotone.co.uk
Click to expand...
wonder what shape an old mm cart body is in ? are they indestructible in normal use ? You can buy an old shure v15 and a SAS stylus from Jico
 
Mnyb said:
wonder what shape an old mm cart body is in ? are they indestructible in normal use ? You can buy an old shure v15 and a SAS stylus from Jico
Click to expand...
I have seen no complains around so far, only that they are hard to find.
Prices seem more than ok as well looking at old sales.
 
Mnyb said:
wonder what shape an old mm cart body is in ? are they indestructible in normal use ? You can buy an old shure v15 and a SAS stylus from Jico
Click to expand...
As long as the coils are good, there's nothing much to degrade in a MM cartridge body. All the degradable stuff, like cantilever suspension, is replaced when the stylus is replaced. The only exception is should a rare cartridge be retipped rather than have the stylus assembly replaced. If that happens, then a competent retipper like Expert Stylus will evaluate the state of the suspension before doing any retipping.

S.
 
An Ortofon LM20H og 30H could have been a solution, but those are history now. You could try a used Ortofon LMB body and perhaps a stylus 12 if it still these days have high compliance. I have a Shure M95 that I don't use anymore, if you're interested send me a PM.
 
Heinrich said:
Your example matches well with calculations. I re-evaluated the resonance using a regular record, not too badly warped, and got to estimate 8.5Hz +/- 0.7Hz roughly from the spectrogram. Because of the square law in frequency versus compliance measurement errors propagate strongly (+/- 10% Fr => +/- 20% compliance). The Grado is pretty old now but not too far out of specs. It might be at 17.5µm/mN. Tracking is superb still.

I wonder, why the DP37F has this insanely light arm, and was delivered with Denon DL110 (Europe). The dynamic damping of the arm seems to struggle a bit with the doubled mass. Hence my question regarding some cheaper cartrige with high compliance. Alas, the AT "entry" series seems to be a little bit to stiff. The OM-type Ortophons are a too stiff and are lightweight also.
Click to expand...
Can't advise you more than go back in history; the Shure V15IV with a nude Jico elliptical is rated 0.75-1.5 g. But if you got 8.5 Hz, was the 14 Hz wrong?
 
Not sure if my memory is accurate but the Ortofon OM 20 was supposedly high compliance. It sounded pretty decent on my SME 3009 Series II arm back in the day. It had horrible IGD and I changed to a high end Audio Technica MM with a line contact stylus instead. Nowadays the AT's are medium compliance so you'd have to go vintage there too.
 
Mnyb said:
I follow this tread with great interest, I recently acquired a TD126 mk II with SME III arm .

I also want to know about recent high compliance carts . ( the Stanton 881S it came with is probably 40 years old )

I found this https://ortofon.com/products/2m-bro...PW9AxcLBt_5Z0eOO42LhWdAFXlpNX6#specifications only 22uM but with the right paddle my arm migth work out .

It weights about 7.2 grams .

Keep posting :)
Click to expand...
The SME III damper (and its FD200 sibling) was far too severe - just hold the headshell over a record and let go - the stylus descended not too differently to the cueing device!!! Either use the smallest paddle shaved to a pencil point, or better, use baby oil or similar, instead of the goo that SME originally supplied!

If you have a company that can properly re-tip your 881S with a decent Shibata-type diamond (rather than a new cantilever/diamond assembly as most do), I'd suggest considering this, as a good 881S sample was seriously good back then and fine for the arm. Modern third party replace,ents may well alter the tonal balance as happens with Shures, which actually many people prefer, so there ya go!

Alternatively, I'm not sure if the III headshell (certainly the earlier version) can take the Ortofon 2M models (a Bronze or Black would be excellent sonic match and the 'Blue' would certainly spice up the reproduction a good bit), but if you patiently look around, the SME/Ortofon 'Concorde' arm wands, may come up and now, Ortofon have a whole new range of styli similar to the 2M range, which should fit the OM bodies too with luck (when my OM30 stylus finally gives up).

---

As for high compliance, I come from the days of the Empire 1000ZE/X and ADC 25 and 26, with impossibly high compliance styli that only seemed to work best back then, in the Transcriptors Fluid Arm at 0.7g or so, said arm a very low mass highly-damped uni-pivot type. Even the SME II Improved with fixed headshell wasn't quite right. I have an ADC 26 here and an original brand new XLM and neither work stably nor track securely at under a gramme in a typical mid-mass tonearm (could be age, or more recent 'hot-cut' pressings). My Shure V15T2 (new Shure stylus) is a compliant 1g tracker but it's not as 'wobbly' as the ADCs are. (The V15 III is definitely more tolerant here.)

The idea is to get the arm-cartridge resonance down to 10Hz or so and then filter it away below 20Hz in the phono stage. I hope @Frank Dernie can chip in from a turntable-engineer-of-old viewpoint please...
 
raindance said:
Not sure if my memory is accurate but the Ortofon OM 20 was supposedly high compliance. It sounded pretty decent on my SME 3009 Series II arm back in the day. It had horrible IGD and I changed to a high end Audio Technica MM with a line contact stylus instead. Nowadays the AT's are medium compliance so you'd have to go vintage there too.
Click to expand...
The OM20 (wasn't it the higher compliance/lower downforce LM20 at first?) was pretty good generally and like its descendants (2M Blue and 520mk2), could sound a bit too much in some systems. Modern better behaved tweeters may not give the issues you describe ;) I have an OM5e, Om10 and (too) laid back OM30 here as well as a 520mk2 which is great fun, but not well refined I admit. This latter 'sounds' great in my (added cork mat) Dual 1019 however - cough... Dear old thing - how the heck am I going to be able to sell these things at some point to reduce 'baggage.'

DSCF0386.JPG
 
Thomas_A said:
... was the 14 Hz wrong?
Click to expand...
Not exactly wrong, but a guestimate, allow for +/- 1Hz of an error. The whole bare eye observtion and number wrenching may err by 30%. in regard to either empty tonearm mass or compliance vice versa. The lower effectiveness of computer controlled dynamic damping, that sold me to the Denon, doesn't cope too well with doubling the mass, that's conclusive.

Sure, the Shure was and is an undisputed masterpiece, but as ever since, I won't afford it. It's just about playing around, wondering how much I fooled myself in the heydays of material hifi.

As someone else mentioned it, "wobbling" is a non-issue with the Denon's tonearm, when operational. The Grado on the Denon, other than with my Thorens 126/3 keeps track at 45cm/s @2.5kHz, overly distorting one channel only, but that might be a defect. The test record says in the booklet: plain impossible.
 
Back to the OP question -

One of the AT 500/700 models would be fine I suspect, the 740 upwards having a heavier, and perhaps better with the Denon arm, metal mounting bracket.

The Ortofon 2M models work well in the low to medium mass Rega RB arms, but I'd look to the 2M Bronze myself.

Not a Nagaoka fan (prices shot up after 2008 I recall), but the MP300 may be worth a look although the price is daft in my opinion.


Sadly, sibilance-distortion can be carved into an affected record by the mis-tracking stylus and nothing can fix it once done sadly. I have an otherwise good pressing of The Yes Album and there's a nasssty 's' sound on the first song that no stylus can fix. I live with it, as it's not my favourite Yes album in any case.
 
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Mnyb said:
I follow this tread with great interest, I recently acquired a TD126 mk II with SME III arm .

I also want to know about recent high compliance carts . ( the Stanton 881S it came with is probably 40 years old )

I found this https://ortofon.com/products/2m-bro...PW9AxcLBt_5Z0eOO42LhWdAFXlpNX6#specifications only 22uM but with the right paddle my arm migth work out .

It weights about 7.2 grams .

Keep posting :)
Click to expand...
For recent high compliance cartridges, there's the Nagaoka MP-700 at 30/32 µm/mN.
 
sqrl said:
For recent high compliance cartridges, there's the Nagaoka MP-700 at 30/32 µm/mN.
Click to expand...
It is one of the few current ones, but it comes with a price though...

From the past; Shure, Empire had low tracking forces and replacement stylii can be bought from e.g. Jico.
 
Heinrich said:
When fiddling with my trusty Denon DP-37F I noticed that the base resonance of the tonearm was 14Hz. I added 10g to the headshell to get 10Hz. That implicates an effective tonearm mass w/o cartridge to be 4g, as the mounted Grado Green is listed to weigh 6g. (changed position of counterweight neglected.)

Considering that the tonearm isn't meant to carry extra weight for a recommended resonance of 10Hz I conclude that the compliance should match at 40 µm/mN, if the weight of the pickup is kept the same. Same issue with my Thorens TD126 Mk3.

I found only few and costly specimen that roughly adhere to the requirement (~6grams, 40µm/mN @10Hz). Do you know of a cartridge, from today or the past, that operates well with such a high compliance?
Click to expand...
I had an Elac D STS-455E on a Michell Fluid Arm, for which there are aftermarket styli still available. 40 µm/mN.
 
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