Cartridge Retipping/Cantilever Replacement Experience

[tmike]

Hi all,

I wanted to share my experience with retipping an Audio Technica AT33PTG/2 recently.

First I got a few quotes:

1. VAS(Steve): $350
2. All Clear Audio(Chris): $350 (Australia)
3. Needle Clinic(Andy): $450 + shipping
4. Groovetickler(eBay): $650
5. Audio Technica Trade-in: AT33XMLD for $559.25

I did some research and found that some people would graft the new cantilever on instead of replacing it completely which may be the only way. I asked Steve and he said he would probably have to graft it after seeing my photo. Then, I asked Andy and he said "it would have to be completely replaced." So I went with Andy because I didn't want the cantilever to be grafted as it would change the mass of the assembly.

He performed the repair fairly quickly and sent it out I think on the same day he received it. I got an invoice from him and he charged me an additional $15 for shipping which was not what he quoted me originally. I received the cartridge and proceeded to do an inspection and found out that he had grafted the new cantilever on and also found out the stylus looked like a Shibata and not a Microridge as he originally said what the replacement would be. After a long email conversation I proposed to him to give me a $100 refund and I won't send it back for a full refund which he did provide. I got the $100 refund. In the email conversations, he would not admit to any wrongdoing.

I have more info and pictures but I didn't want to make a long post so if you have any questions feel free to reach out.

 

[JP]

He probably tried to blame you. Sorry you went through that, but if you search the net you'll find that you were one of the lucky ones.

I've yet to have anything retipped, but I have had several conversations with Joe (groovetickler) who I find to a nice and humble person who has no issue saying "I don't know", which puts him far above the rest in my book.

 

[Balle Clorin]

I never been tempted to retip… even less now . A trade in seems to be better option to me.
Thanks for the info

 

[tmike]

Yeah. Although the replacement is much heavier and may not work with my turntable.

AT33PTG/2: 6.9g
AT33XMLD: 10.1g

 

[sergeauckland]

My experience with retipping has been different. I've had three of my cartridges retipped by The Expert Stylus Company in the UK. An AT33ML, an EMT TSD15 and an Ortofon MC15SII. Retipped with their own Paratrace stylus, which is a line contact stylus, similar to VdH. A friend locally here had his Ortofon fitted with a new sapphire cantilever and stylus when he broke his. All successful, and far cheaper than the sort of prices above.

I wouldn't hesitate to use Expert Stylus again.

S.

 

[DSJR]

My experience with retipping has been different. I've had three of my cartridges retipped by The Expert Stylus Company in the UK. An AT33ML, an EMT TSD15 and an Ortofon MC15SII. Retipped with their own Paratrace stylus, which is a line contact stylus, similar to VdH. A friend locally here had his Ortofon fitted with a new sapphire cantilever and stylus when he broke his. All successful, and far cheaper than the sort of prices above.

I wouldn't hesitate to use Expert Stylus again.

S.

I have a rather nice AT OC30 with good cantilever but no diamond (happened a few times with butt-mounted diamond chips I remember).

What I'd love to have resotred one day is my Koetsu Black. Low hours diamond and lovely 'sound' when working, the bottom plate fell off and I accidentally caught a coil wire when refitting it and said wire became fractured. No idea how much it would cost to re-wire said coils (assuming a repair couldn't be done to graft the fracture together internally as it's far enough from the windings themselves) and also no idea if ESCo could even tackle that kind of rebuild. I know Goldring over here may be able to do this, but they weren't cheap at all I recall.

One day, said Koetsu (the Blacks lacked the overdamped and rosy character, together with the hyped cachet of the higher models of old), will be sorted as it 'sounded' so good in my particular turntable.

 

[tmike]

I spend the last couple of days making a spacer for the re-tipped cartridge. When combined with the headshell, some angle adjustments were made to get to as close to zero as possible. After many iterations, I was happy with 5.7 degree adjustment for SRA, 3.5 degrees for azimuth and a couple of degrees for zenith. The height of the spacer was also increased to make the tonearm horizontal. I am not sure but I think the Ortofon 2M Blue that came with my RT85 did not result in a horizontal tonearm to begin with. I don't know if anyone can confirm but I had to print a 8mm tall spacer to make it horizontal.

Audio:
Before Spacer: Re-uploading to match volume of the other video.

After Spacer:

References:
https://www.wallyanalog.com/post/is-this-what-ideal-azimuth-alignment-looks-like
https://www.wallyanalog.com/post/zenith-error-the-final-alignment-frontier

Stylus not put on straight:

Spacer:

Outcom:

Some measurements:

White noise: (L +R, Sorry, forgot to hide the settings. Slight bump above 10k, not sure why it goes downwards with pink noise.)

Pink noise: (L+R)

SNR: (L +R)

Channel Separation: (Not great, manufacturer spec is 30dB. Need to remeasure at higher levels.)

Channel Sync: (Right channel appears to be ahead by 40μs.)

 

[GuidoK]

Some measurements:

It would be really interesting if you showed these measurements with and without that spacer.
It would also be really interesting to see (well....hear) a difference between with and witout spacer while playing a track that is really difficult to track.
For instance the tacet fricatives test or Billy Jean from Thriller. Both these tracks show (hear) significant improvements when played with ML or other line contact stylii over conical/elliptical, so alignment here might be a deciding factor too.
That alignment on that stylus is totally off if you have to make such a spacer.

 

[Balle Clorin]

Few pink noise track are linear. The one I know is flat AnalogMagik V2, most others dip in top and bottom..

Did you mean new diamond or new cantilever&diamond?

 

[Bland_username42069]

Mm cartridges solve all of these problems

 

[sergeauckland]

Mm cartridges solve all of these problems

Yes, but they have problems of their own, mostly to do with loading. I accept that someone with technical knowledge and the ability and interest in making measurements can optimise a MM cartridge, but others won't be able to. On the other hand, MMs generally track better and by providing more signal, result in lower noise.

However, I've found that MCs are much more 'Plug and play' than MMs, as being pretty much immune to loading issues and noise although higher than an MM, acceptably low, certainly lower than the background noise of the LP itself.

I spent years messing around with MMs, mostly the Shure V15 series, trying to get the flattest frequency response, but since going over to MCs, about 20 years ago, they just work.

S.

 

[tmike]

It would be really interesting if you showed these measurements with and without that spacer.
It would also be really interesting to see (well....hear) a difference between with and witout spacer while playing a track that is really difficult to track.
For instance the tacet fricatives test or Billy Jean from Thriller. Both these tracks show (hear) significant improvements when played with ML or other line contact stylii over conical/elliptical, so alignment here might be a deciding factor too.
That alignment on that stylus is totally off if you have to make such a spacer.

Yeah, I should have but I don't really want to align the azimuth again. I did however, record a Fleetwood Mac album before and after so I will post that soon so you can see if you can hear a difference.

 

[Bland_username42069]

Yes, but they have problems of their own, mostly to do with loading. I accept that someone with technical knowledge and the ability and interest in making measurements can optimise a MM cartridge, but others won't be able to. On the other hand, MMs generally track better and by providing more signal, result in lower noise.

However, I've found that MCs are much more 'Plug and play' than MMs, as being pretty much immune to loading issues and noise although higher than an MM, acceptably low, certainly lower than the background noise of the LP itself.

I spent years messing around with MMs, mostly the Shure V15 series, trying to get the flattest frequency response, but since going over to MCs, about 20 years ago, they just work.

S.

Yes I think in the past there was always a very clear trade off between the two but today mm’s biggest flaw, frequency response, can easily be corrected if you don’t mind running it through an ad/da converter with peq and a bit a faffing around.

If one objects to the faff and doesn’t mind the extra expense then HOMC is probably still the best option.

 

[tmike]

Yes I think in the past there was always a very clear trade off between the two but today mm’s biggest flaw, frequency response, can easily be corrected if you don’t mind running it through an ad/da converter with peq and a bit a faffing around.

If one objects to the faff and doesn’t mind the extra expense then HOMC is probably still the best option.

Other than the frequency response. I would think the lightness of the pickup section should make a difference.

 

[Balle Clorin]

If one objects to the faff and doesn’t mind the extra expense then HOMC is probably still the best option

To be honest HOMC seems like a choice that time has left behind.

Low output is not any problem with present amplifiers, HOMC adds mass to an Low MC , deteriorating performance, adds inductance for nothing and makes stylus non replaceable.. more like a low output MM without replaceable stylus. I cannot see a reason to go for such a thing. Or possibly if someone has a too noisy tube preamp and har an urge to try MC without fixing the basic amp problem..
Sorry to be harsh , but that is how I see it

Both MM and MC has a frequency bump, only the MM can be controlled without EQ/DSP ( my Puffin does that by the way)

 

[Balle Clorin]

I spend the last couple of days making a spacer for the re-tipped cartridge. When combined with the headshell, some angle adjustments were made to get to as close to zero as possible. After many iterations, I was happy with 5.7 degree adjustment for SRA, 3.5 degrees for azimuth and a couple of degrees for zenith. The height of the spacer was also increased to make the tonearm horizontal. I am not sure but I think the Ortofon 2M Blue that came with my RT85 did not result in a horizontal tonearm to begin with. I don't know if anyone can confirm but I had to print a 8mm tall spacer to make it horizontal.

References:
https://www.wallyanalog.com/post/is-this-what-ideal-azimuth-alignment-looks-like
https://www.wallyanalog.com/post/zenith-error-the-final-alignment-frontier

Stylus not put on straight:
View attachment 520811

Spacer:
View attachment 520813

Outcom:
View attachment 520820

View attachment 520821

View attachment 520822

Some measurements:

White noise: (L +R, Sorry, forgot to hide the settings. Slight bump above 10k, not sure why it goes downwards with pink noise.)
View attachment 520816

Pink noise: (L+R)
View attachment 520818

SNR: (L +R)
View attachment 520817


Channel Separation: (Not great, manufacturer spec is 30dB. Need to remeasure at higher levels.)
View attachment 520910

Channel Sync: (Right channel appears to be ahead by 40 ns.)
View attachment 520911

Did you mean us,, ?

 

[tmike]

Did you mean us,, ?

I can't believe you caught that. Updated.

 

[Bland_username42069]

To be honest HOMC seems like a choice that time has left behind.

Low output is not any problem with present amplifiers, HOMC adds mass to an Low MC , deteriorating performance, adds inductance for nothing and makes stylus non replaceable.. more like a low output MM without replaceable stylus. I cannot see a reason to go for such a thing. Or possibly if someone has a too noisy tube preamp and har an urge to try MC without fixing the basic amp problem..
Sorry to be harsh , but that is how I see it

Both MM and MC has a frequency bump, only the MM can be controlled without EQ/DSP ( my Puffin does that by the way)

That’s a fair point.

The bump in MC can be way less pronounced than in MM though.

Whether one can even hear it in either case is debatable.

for me it’s tracking, output, then frequency response in order of importance so I always go MM but I could see why people might favour the flatter response MC generally give as their first priority.

 

[Balle Clorin]

I run the exact same stylus( obray Boron Microridge ) on two parallell different set ups with one on MM and the other MC ..
Both sound very nice, but maybe the MC is A bit more refined with less sibilant on crescendo..

cheating with Puffin I get this in MM…

MC same stylus

 

[JP]

That’s a fair point.

The bump in MC can be way less pronounced than in MM though.

Whether one can even hear it in either case is debatable.

for me it’s tracking, output, then frequency response in order of importance so I always go MM but I could see why people might favour the flatter response MC generally give as their first priority.

MC do not generally give a flatter response.