Cargo cult science... Pseudoscience and self delusion.

[Cosmik]

I read Feynman’s words as “question the experts, and demand a comprehensible answer”.

Trust: "belief that someone or something is reliable, good, honest, effective, etc."

Feynman didn't question the mazologists at all. He just observed that they were not reliable, good or effective. But maybe "trust" was not the best word to use because it has within it connotations of "honesty" and I don't think Feynman was doubting the honesty of the mazologists - they probably were/are perfectly sincere in their ineffectiveness.

 

[Thomas savage]

I Sense a forum slogan coming on... ' sincere in our ineffectiveness '

 

[SoundAndMotion]

Sorry Cosmik, I don’t want to be pedantic, but this issue is important to me.

I object to you or Feynman or anyone making the blanket statement “I do not trust the experts”, or even “I do not believe that experts are reliable, good, honest, etc.”, and let's be clear, he did not say that verbatim. I find this dangerous and arbitrary. Anytime one disagrees with an expert (perhaps you don't like the political implications of the expert's work), they can cite Feynman (according to you - I disagree) and say “I do not trust the experts”. Feynman was an expert in a variety of sub-fields of physics, and I trust him.

When I said “question the experts”, I meant (and said) “question their (scientific) methodology”. I did not mean call them on the phone and ask them, I meant evaluate their methods and then decide on trust.

You said:

In other words, every 'expert' in that field has already signed up to an orthodoxy that exists only in reference to itself, and only someone on the outside can identify its meaninglessness.

and that is not true. Young proves that it is not every expert, and I doubt Young was the only one ever. Since you, I, and Feynman are not experts in rat mazes, and Feynman's words are from 1974, I think your characterization "every expert" is too strong.

I fully stand by my statement:

Experts can and should be trusted when they can demonstrate their trustworthiness to non-experts.

 

[Thomas savage]

For me I would happily replace The word 'trustworthiness' with 'competence ' . The competence is establish through the correct execution of known and respected scientific procedure, this transcends any individual discipline within the various sciences.

 

[Cosmik]

Young proves that it is not every expert, and I doubt Young was the only one ever. Since you, I, and Feynman are not experts in rat mazes, and Feynman's words are from 1974, I think your characterization "every expert" is too strong.

I didn't say all experts in all fields were wrong, merely that Feynman stated (or implied) that they were all wrong in the field of 'mazology' (OK, except for Young, himself). The significant point being that he was commenting on someone else's field of expertise, which I found refreshing.

Of course, Feynman is most famous for "questioning" the expertise of rocket engineers, even though that wasn't his field at all. In this case the words "not trusting" would have been perfectly appropriate, I think.

 

[Cosmik]

For me I would happily replace The word 'trustworthiness' with 'competence ' . The competence is establish through the correct execution of known and respected scientific procedure, this transcends any individual discipline within the various sciences.

I think of "competence" as a very 'low level' phenomenon. A person can be a very competent homeopathist, and may even follow scientific procedures to the letter, but it doesn't make their work meaningful or useful. Only a non-homeopathist could identify it as useless, though.

 

[Thomas savage]

I think of "competence" as a very 'low level' phenomenon. A person can be a very competent homeopathist, and may even follow scientific procedures to the letter, but it doesn't make their work meaningful or useful. Only a non-homeopathist could identify it as useless, though.

Well we are talking about correct procedure I guess.. A 'low level' phenomenon?

And disappearing up our collective semantic arses

 

[SoundAndMotion]

I didn't say all experts in all fields were wrong, merely that Feynman stated (or implied) that they were all wrong in the field of 'mazology' (OK, except for Young, himself). The significant point being that he was commenting on someone else's field of expertise, which I found refreshing.

Of course, Feynman is most famous for "questioning" the expertise of rocket engineers, even though that wasn't his field at all. In this case the words "not trusting" would have been perfectly appropriate, I think.

Yes, Feynman was refreshing and brilliant. Everyone who is, or wants to be, an "expert" needs to be aware of the O-ring demo. Just brilliant!

Feynman's ability to see the simplicity in complex things is one of the reasons he's my favorite scientist, which is the reason my son's middle name comes from him! ... and why my son's guinea pig was named Ritty.

 

[TBone]

Yes, Feynman was refreshing and brilliant. Everyone who is, or wants to be, an "expert" needs to be aware of the O-ring demo. Just brilliant!

Feynman's ability to see the simplicity in complex things is one of the reasons he's my favorite scientist, which is the reason my son's middle name comes from him!

Huge NASA fan, its history, esp ww2, rocket technology and space race ...

That said, always remember this statement ...

"Finally, if we are to replace standard numerical probability usage
with engineering judgment, why do we find such an enormous disparity
between the management estimate and the judgment of the engineers? It
would appear that, for whatever purpose, be it for internal or
external consumption, the management of NASA exaggerates the
reliability of its product, to the point of fantasy."

 

[krabapple]

In the 80’s, there was a popular t-shirt that read simply “Question Authority”.

um...that slogan goes a bit further back than the 80s.

 

[krabapple]

Sorry Cosmik, I don’t want to be pedantic, but this issue is important to me.
Anytime one disagrees with an expert (perhaps you don't like the political implications of the expert's work), they can cite Feynman (according to you - I disagree) and say “I do not trust the experts”.

They can, and they do.

And that's why every time a global warming denier cites Feynman (or Kuhn, for that matter), a puppy dies.

 

[SoundAndMotion]

um...that slogan goes a bit further back than the 80s.

um... I don't doubt that. Was there more to your point? I said in the 80's the t-shirt was popular, and nothing about the origin of the slogan.

 

[Sal1950]

Bicker, bicker, bicker. Sounds like a bunch of the ole ladies yapin down at the cement pond.

 

[Dynamix]

Bicker, bicker, bicker. Sounds like a bunch of the ole ladies yapin down at the cement pond.

Hey, it's not like we have anything better to do with our time.