Cardioid speakers in real (home) rooms

[AudioJester]

If you are considering the Mesanovic or Orbits - make sure you check out Amir's reviews. Erin has also recently reviewed the Orbit.

The C8C does need a windows pc to initially cnfigure, but once done you forget about it. It also requires a pre/dac/streamer wth remote for optimal control. I have a digital AES connection and a separate analog xlr connection for a turntable.

 

[AudioJester]

Green lines in below plots show rear-wall reflection level. Especially 5dB higher reduction of midrange reflections will give improved sound image depth and focus. That's why I would prefer the Orbits over CDM65 and Kii 7 when it comes to cardioid performance. In Kii 7 plot, the rear wall bounce is a bit hard to see due to thin line and pink color. It's comparable to CDM65.

What do you think of the smoothness of the reflection curve? Is that an important consideration, the Orbit looks really wonky?

 

[illusonic]

What do you think of the smoothness of the reflection curve? Is that an important consideration, the Orbit looks really wonky?

Speaker radiation is 3D not 2D curves. I care more about total energy radiated towards the sides and rear than smooth transition between high and low sound pressure regions. Effectiveness of cardioid mode depends on total energy reduction of rear sound. The "wonkyness" of spinorama curves is exactly what spinorama score evaluates. Note that a little EQ gets the Orbits to 7.45 and the Mesanovic to 7.16. Between discussed speakers only C8C is on another level.

 

[HooStat]

Don't know how to understand your quotes above. Specifically, what devides market segments in your view as performance seems not so important - maybe price? In any case, cardioid mode is obviously something you want to have.

With regard to the latter, let me point out that the Orbit's cardioid mode is simply more effective in the midrange than for CDM65 and Kii 7. Put the Orbits right at the wall and you don't get rear-wall cancellation notches either (this means no disadvantage of less low-frequency extension of cardiod mode).

Green lines in below plots show rear-wall reflection level. Especially 5dB higher reduction of midrange reflections will give improved sound image depth and focus. That's why I would prefer the Orbits over CDM65 and Kii 7 when it comes to cardioid performance. In Kii 7 plot, the rear wall bounce is a bit hard to see due to thin line and pink color. It's comparable to CDM65.

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There is also no other performance gap between Orbits and similar sized Kii/Mesanovic speakers that isn't at least compensated by another valueable feature. Horizontal directivity is better for Kii/Mesa but vertical is much better for Palmer. Bass output of the Orbits is higher than for both other speakers. The Orbit's harmonic distortion is lower than Kii 7 and similar to CDM65. Intermodulation distortion is quite similar for all of them.

While built quality and finish is comparable for Palmer and Kii Audio, the full aluminium enclosure of the Orbits just puts them on a bit higher level. Mesanovic cannot compete on finish.

Finally you don't need SW nor have to crawl behind the speakers to reach all settings of the Orbits because Palmer cared for user-friendly integration of filter controls on top of the speakers. Combine them with a good streamer that includes EQ and you get a small but capable audio system that is easily fullrange in a small room. The other speakers may have been good offers before the Orbits existed. That's over now. So unless you want expensive speakers because of their price, the Palmers are worth serious consideration.

With all that said, I can repeat what I wrote earlier. If performance is most important, C8C is the way to go.

I am looking at the whole package. Sound quality, looks, ergonomics, flexibility of connections, ease of setup, fewest pieces of equipment, support from the company. No single product can be best on all fronts -- hence I am not focusing on sound quality since these are, by most accounts, high quality speakers. Price is relative -- there is certainly a value argument to be made based on the whole set of features.

Just to clarify my point, the speakers I highlighted are "good enough" that the other things take priority. So now I am focused on the ones that are easiest to use so I don't have to fiddle around with too much. If I have to add extra boxes to get full functionality, then these boxes also have to look nice and have good ergonomics. Sometimes chasing "best sound" becomes drudgery in real world use (e.g., having to deal with windows).

I read the Palmer reviews differently than you did, but I can certainly take another look at them. I appreciate you taking the time to post the plots -- that is very helpful.

 

[illusonic]

What do you think of the smoothness of the reflection curve? Is that an important consideration, the Orbit looks really wonky?

Btw. what do you think of the wonky vertical dispersion curves of the non coaxial speakers? Wouldn't this affect tonality in the same way as wonky horizontal curves?

 

[illusonic]

I am looking at the whole package. Sound quality, looks, ergonomics, flexibility of connections, ease of setup, fewest pieces of equipment, support from the company.

Think I adressed most of these points already. Maybe also consider 5 year warranty of the Orbits and the fact that Palmer is part of LD Systems that sells pro audio equipment worldwide. So it's an established company with big distribution network.

I consider Eversolo DMP-A6 a very nice streamer to go with any of these active speakers.

I read the Palmer reviews differently than you did, but I can certainly take another look at them. I appreciate you taking the time to post the plots -- that is very helpful.

I read the measurements, not the comments. Some of the latter just make no sense to me. For example, Erin's enthusiastic comments on the CDM65 only make sense to me when considering the time these were made. Measurement comparison cannot justify high praise for CDM65 compared to rather reseved comments on the Orbits. And if Kii 7 would be judged equally hard on low-frequency output as Amir did for the Orbits, the review would make them look really bad.

 

[illusonic]

One more comment. I actually think that Kii 7 and CDM65 are both fantastic speakers. And a good reason to buy them would be support of small companies and local economy. 6C is unfortunately extremely high priced. So these would not be cosidered if I would be looking for new speakers. In contrast, the Orbits are priced so low for the given performance, that I bought them just out of curiosity. And I bought them purely based on measurements from @stoneeh. Amir's and Erin's measurements did not bring any surprises. So I'm satisfied with measurement performance and with their sound.

 

[HooStat]

Eversolo DMP-A6

I found that product to be strange. It has no analog input. And my understanding is that external digital inputs don't get routed to the digital output. But it does analog out so it is possible. It just seemed odd to be so heavily focused on analog volume.

 

[AudioJester]

Amir and Erin and trustworthy, none of the rest of us are....
Dont trust the random interpretations of others. Ideally, listen for yourself in your room - which is very difficult to do. In any case, for simplicity - a pre is going to make a difference. Personally, Iam a fan of Dirac ART if you have other speakers or subs to use as support - a bit of setup, then forget.

I agree the Eversolo product line up is perfect for active speakers. I think one of the newer models has a CD tray as well

 

[illusonic]

I found that product to be strange. It has no analog input. And my understanding is that external digital inputs don't get routed to the digital output. But it does analog out so it is possible. It just seemed odd to be so heavily focused on analog volume.

Just using it as a source, not even doing volume on it. Mainly because I liked the display. But would be surprised if it wouldn't be possible to route all inputs to the output(s) and volume is also either fixed (as in my case) or variable via remote and front wheel.

 

[HooStat]

Just using it as a source, not even doing volume on it. Mainly because I liked the display. But would be surprised if it wouldn't be possible to route all inputs to the output(s) and volume is also either fixed (as in my case) or variable via remote and front wheel.

No analog input is the problem. Also, everything gets output as analog, which would be fine if it had analog in. You have to move up to the $2000 unit to get analog input, and that is a lot for an analog volume control and streamer.

 

[illusonic]

Amir and Erin and trustworthy, none of the rest of us are....
Dont trust the random interpretations of others.

If you value measurements but don't feel comfortable to interprete them, it's on you to get better understanding. I'm also not aware that Amir commented on any audible effects of the Orbit's cardioid dispersion or how it influences sound image. This would require stereo listening. And for Kii 7 there is no Amir/Erin review. So all we have are measurements.

 

[illusonic]

Also, everything gets output as analog

I use digital output to mini DSP for Dirac and then RME Fireface for loudness volume and DA. So I don't care having a lot of little boxes.

 

[Salt]

I found that product to be strange. It has no analog input. And my understanding is that external digital inputs don't get routed to the digital output. But it does analog out so it is possible. It just seemed odd to be so heavily focused on analog volume.

A6 is good enough, except for analog Input and HP output.

 

[Purité Audio]

I found that product to be strange. It has no analog input. And my understanding is that external digital inputs don't get routed to the digital output. But it does analog out so it is possible. It just seemed odd to be so heavily focused on analog volume.

A8 has the analogue input.
Keith

 

[AudioJester]

If you value measurements but don't feel comfortable to interprete them, it's on you to get better understanding. I'm also not aware that Amir commented on any audible effects of the Orbit's cardioid dispersion or how it influences sound image. This would require stereo listening. And for Kii 7 there is no Amir/Erin review. So all we have are measurements.

I can interpret measurements - hence I bought the C8C on preorder before they were even made. I also have Genelec 8361a on hand.

The OP needs to be very wary of enthusiastic fanboys repeatedly trying to convince them speaker A is better than speaker B, when its not that simple or the case. Look at what the best reviewers write.

Anyway, he knows what he is doing and is correct, in that all on his short list will be more than adequate.

What are you using that requires analog input?
I am not convinced I can notice a diffetence between analog and digital input on my C8C or 8361a. I use an Okto dac that has both AES and analog outputs. I also have a waxing phone pre which I can route through a digital input.

 

[illusonic]

I can interpret measurements

Then why don't you just put Kii/Mesa/Palmer measurements next to each other to see their pros and cons? What I wrote above is based on this kind of comparison. If you think I'm wrong, just show me in the measurements. I can't find justification for the price difference. Can you?

I'm tired of fans of certain gear or brands that accuse others to be fanboys. If you point at others, three fingers point back at you. I think that average people with average money can be very happy that the Orbits exist. I see no better value for money in their performance range. They compete with much more costly speakers. Aren't these good reasons to become Orbit fan? Also consider the small investment I did on the Orbits compared to yours. I think you would have much better reason to post-justify your purchase than I do.

What are you using that requires analog input?

A Purifi amp. While I love good measurements as anyone here, I think these amps are an example of unnecessary measurement performance. Just consider the amps in your Genelecs, which are of the same quality as the amps in the Orbits and therefore measure a lot worse than any Purifi amp. I'm sure sound of the Genelecs is close to perfection despite these amps.

 

[HooStat]

The Palmers just failed the spousal approval test. The red trim killed them. But I agree that for the money, they do a heck of a lot. I don't see why some Dirac on top couldn't fix anything objectionable.

What are you using that requires analog input?
I am not convinced I can notice a diffetence between analog and digital input on my C8C or 8361a. I use an Okto dac that has both AES and analog outputs. I also have a waxing phone pre which I can route through a digital input.

Turntable with either the Waxwing or Fidler Phono stage, depending on the exact connections needed for the speakers.

I am just trying to keep it simple. I don't mind all analog or all digital. All digital seems harder -- WiiM, MiniDSP, and a few others. Not all support analog (hence the Waxwing). There are a lot of moving parts and I am trying to fit them all together on paper before I buy anything.

 

[AudioJester]

@illusonic - the big difference is, never once have I repeatedly suggested someone buy the speakers I own claiming they are some sort of second coming, or continuously tried to show proof that they are better than something else when they also have their own limitations.

By the way, I have Orbits on order (been waiting a while) to use on my workplace desk, having fried my Kef LSX. That is the only situation where they excelled on audition compared to some others. Still requires fiddling with EQ to sound completely right for my preferences, more so than my Neuman KH120 or Kali IN5.
Not a simple setup the OP is looking for....

 

[AudioJester]

Turntable with either the Waxwing or Fidler Phono stage, depending on the exact connections needed for the speakers

The Waxwing is one of my best purchases ever. Its an incredible device and really simple to use - just works. My phone app auto-connected, lots to play around with, but the Magic function is very useful