Cardioid speakers in real (home) rooms

[HooStat]

For my purposes, I am considering the Ascilab C8C, Kii SEVEN, and Dutch and Dutch 6c to all be comparable for smaller rooms. Different prices and different looks, but all cardioid to about the same 125 Hz level, all with good measurements currently, or likely in the future. I am trusting that D&D's 6c will be designed to the level of the 8c (again, for my purposes). My room is 14' x 18' with 8' ceilings (flat) FWIW.

Documentation: I may just be missing the details, but the websites for these products, particularly Ascilab and Dutch and Dutch, provide little in the way of details. Ascilab does have a user manual which is helpful but the Dutch and Dutch website has nothing, even though the product is on the market and being sold.. Kii seems to be the most forthcoming but that may be because their product has been on the market longer.

Price and appearance: They have different prices and different looks - those are all personal considerations so I am not focusing on them here.

Cardioid:

• D&D handles the cardioid acoustically with its slots, while the other two use DSP. I know some have mentioned that the D&D approach has more distortion that might or might not be audible. For my purposes, I am not worried about that unless it makes it harder to handle room correction.
• Ascilab and Kii both use side drivers for bass while D&D uses a rear woofer. I have no idea whether one approach is more useful in real rooms. I do like that you can put the Kii (and the Asci lab?) against the back wall which is great for simple placement.

Low frequency response: It isn't clear which speaker(s) have the best low frequency response but they all seem more than adequate for my needs. We won't know more until they all get measured. There will be some variation on how they handle volume-based bass-extension. I listen around 80db or less, so high volume is a non-issues for me but it might be for others.

Room correction, volume and streaming: In real rooms with real applications, they all differ in terms of what they support for room correction and connection to other products. I am not expert enough to know which of these products will be most easily adapted to a real-world room.

Dutch and Dutch 6c: I know D&D has its semi-automatic "room matching" software. App based volume control. Not sure what corrections are allowed and how sophisticated their system is. It has streaming support. There is really not much information available and no user manual that I could find.

Kii SEVEN. Kii has a number of settings and filters that can be applied, plus an 8-band PEQ and 6 customizable preference settings. They offer an expensive (~$900) wired controller for volume and additional inputs that also allows a wireless Apple Remote to operate volume. As far as I can tell the remote doesn't provide any additional functionality that isn't in the Kii app, but I have not been able to confirm that. It appears to have extensive streaming support. No publicly available user manual that I can find.

Ascilab 8C8: It seems to provide 9 band PEQ, customizable input gain settings, and requires preamp for volume control (based on my read of the manual). I don't see any streaming support. Only Windows support for setup. But a very transparent user manual, which is nice.

So, my question: Which of these products is the most user-friendly for those who want great sound but don't want to obsess over the tiniest details of the setup? Adding cut filters for peaks below ~200Hz doesn't seem like a big deal. What else am I missing that is important for getting the best out of this class of speakers?

Thanks for your thoughts on this.

 

[Keith_W]

There's also the @Sigberg Audio Manta. I don't know if he has a US dealer or not.

 

[HooStat]

I think Sigberg makes really nice products and was going to include the Manta, but it is $30,000 and includes two separate subs (not a pair of speakers for modest sized rooms). And the Palmer is less expensive but not what I am looking for -- it is a different part of the market (with loads of potential though). The three I listed are competing directly with each other at comparable price points ("comparable" used loosely for the Ascilab since it is about $2,000 less than the Kii).

I made a few other edits to the original post based on some additional facts I found.

 

[dfuller]

So, my question: Which of these products is the most user-friendly for those who want great sound but don't want to obsess over the tiniest details of the setup?

Dutch and Dutch, no question there IMO.

 

[HooStat]

Dutch and Dutch, no question there IMO.

Can you elaborate? What do they do that the others don't? I ask this because there is no documentation that I can find. And Dutch and Dutch is notoriously slow (e.g., still no subwoofer output on the 8c; and Roon took years to get certified).

 

[illusonic]

Kii 7 has lower bass output than Orbit 11. D&D 6C performance is unknown today but I doubt that it will even get close to C8C. So the latter is the best option when judging solely on performance.

 

[tifune]

I've owned the Kii Three, Seven, two pairs of 8C, and c8c+bx8c.

The C8C is more capable then the Kii Seven or 6C. I'm not aware of any measurements of the 6C, but given the C8C keeps pace with the 8C we can be reasonably certain.

Kii seven: https://www.0db.co.kr/REVIEW_0DB/5101668

The Kii Seven does have some way to connect to Apple remotes, or at least I'm told by the person I sold mine to. I never tried it (or even noticed it) but it does require the $$ Kii Control.

Controlling the C8C volume would be awkward, it's done through Hypex app. The C8C is the best $ value on your list, and leaves you a future upgrade path (bx8c). Basically the only reason not to get them over the 6C or the Sevens would be: you physically can't fit the C8C in your desired location and/or you despise their appearance. Supposedly the 6C will have a bass stand as well but presumably an expensive one.

D&D is great, I still have a pair of 8Cs with no immediate intention to sell. If ascilab S6C ever comes to fruition, then I would consider an upgrade. Subjectively, I'm not immediately convinced the C8C is better than the 8C but I guess that's not relevant to your decision. Regardless, you have the data to decide if I'm imagining it. People (reasonably) mention distortion, but as Erin noted there was nothing audible even as high as 105dB at 4m. I use mine nearfield now, but I also used them at 4m and had absolutely no complaints.

With the Kiis, I had the constant urge to mess around with something - the angle, the tone controls, the listening height. As if something was wrong and I couldn't figure out what. D&D and C8C (then bx8c) weren't like that, I applied dirac with clean measurements and I was done. I know people love to say their room is difficult, I can almost guarantee mine is worse than yours. All stone, hardwood floor, and glass. No carpet, no rug, minimal furniture, 4m listening distance. Rt60 around 1.2s yet D&D and C8C sound great.

 

[markstein]

Dutch and Dutch, no question there IMO.

I don't see how D&D is more user friendly than Ascilab. The D&D app did not work with my Android mobile and I had to even organize an Apple iPhone to get two 8C running...

 

[markstein]

I personally and subjectively did not like the D&D 8C so much - also regarding their price tag - and now own the Ascilab C8C and BX8C. I would definitely recommend these speakers to anyone wanting to go "cardioid".

 

[HooStat]

Controlling the C8C volume would be awkward, it's done through Hypex app.

That is the sense that I get too. Based on their documentation, the C8C requires a Windows application for setup which is obviously not platform independent (I don't have a windows laptop). Setup is one speaker at a time. It requires another device for input switching and volume (WiiM, Eversolo, etc). So it isn't the easiest to set up.

 

[markstein]

That is the sense that I get too. Based on their documentation, the C8C requires a Windows application for setup which is obviously not platform independent (I don't have a windows laptop). Setup is one speaker at a time. It requires another device for input switching and volume (WiiM, Eversolo, etc). So it isn't the easiest to set up.

You are correct regarding setup of Ascilab C8C. Hypex HFD software is only available for Windows. You should connect each speaker, one after the other, and do the settings once as per your specific setup.

Regarding streaming and volume control, this functionality is integrated in the D&D 8C Hifi (volume control also in the studio version), however, at a very high price. Also, I personally really like physical knobs to turn or to push and a "mute" button for emergency use.

 

[kharan]

That is the sense that I get too. Based on their documentation, the C8C requires a Windows application for setup which is obviously not platform independent (I don't have a windows laptop). Setup is one speaker at a time. It requires another device for input switching and volume (WiiM, Eversolo, etc). So it isn't the easiest to set up.

IMHO, that's the best way to handle it.

Streaming platforms change. So do streaming protocols. Not having to rely on manufacturer support is best. A streamer with a digital out can be had for very cheap today. And the interface and the reactivity of those streamers is often better than the all-in-one apps that come with speakers.

The weakness of the C8C compared to D&D is mostly looks.

 

[HooStat]

I agree. The D&D is much better looking than the Audilab. Kii is somewhere in the middle. But that is subjective and I am sure others feel differently.

I also want an analog input, which makes finding a nice streamer that controls volume a little more challenging. The WiiM works, but the Eversolo products are expensive and don't do digital volume control as far as I can tell (they have nice analog volume controls). That adds a wrinkle for my use case but it isn't generally applicable.

I think the Kii is the most flexible with many input options and volume control via a remote. It seems the most full-featured from a user perspective. D&D tries to do it all via an app but it doesn't seem as flexible. Particularly when they are so slow to develop software.

 

[napfkuchen]

Don't know where you are located but the Mesanovic CDM65 are currently on sale for $ 3,999 (per pair with stereohub for streaming and roomeq). Performance should be roughly on par with D&D 6c and Kii Seven. You can then add subwoofers later for even better low-end extension.
If performance is your only concern: Go for the C8C and a streamer of your choice.

 

[HooStat]

Don't know where you are located but the Mesanovic CDM65 are currently on sale for $ 3,999 (per pair with stereohub for streaming and roomeq). Performance should be roughly on par with D&D 6c and Kii Seven. You can then add subwoofers later for even better low-end extension.
If performance is your only concern: Go for the C8C and a streamer of your choice.

I am definitely in the "good enough" audio performance group -- I am not chasing the ultimate speaker specs. After that, it is about flexibility to fit the speaker to my room to optimize it, and then ergonomics of operating the system.

I didn't notice that the Mesanovic had a cardioid mode -- great suggestion. I could just do everything else outboard (streamer, analog). I also forgot the GGNTKT M1 speaker which is about $8500 euros.

EDIT: The Mesanovic has either analog in or digital wireless in. You get stuck with the Wisa wireless box to get any room correction.

 

[Morla]

My kii threes went back into the boxes they came with very shortly after I set up my c8c+bx8c combo and I'm not looking back. Maybe if I also had the kii bxt but without that the ascilab boxes are more fun to me (yes.. honeymoom.. we will see)

I used kii control with the apple remote and I loved that. Also kii uses rj45 cable for the connections to the speakers which I liked.

Now I put my shd studio back for volume control from the volumio android app which is just as easy as the apple remote. Ok.. debatable ;-)

 

[HooStat]

My current takeaway is that the cardioid speaker manufacturers are making tremendous strides in speakers, but they are having a rough time navigating the software/connection side of things in an elegant way. To be fair, there are a lot of parts to juggle -- digital and analog inputs, streaming certification, volume control, room correction (preferably automated), app control, and physical remote control. I think Kii is the only one that gets most/all of it when you add the Kii Control. There is something to be said for that. With just digital sources, it gets easier. Analog and volume control add complication. And it depends on one's tolerance for having multiple boxes to connect together.

 

[Purité Audio]

A contemporary ‘streamer’ covers everything you mention.
Keith

 

[Morla]

I mean look at the prices. Best bang is surely ascilab, no?

 

[illusonic]

And the Palmer is less expensive but not what I am looking for -- it is a different part of the market (with loads of potential though).

I am definitely in the "good enough" audio performance group -- I am not chasing the ultimate speaker specs.

I didn't notice that the Mesanovic had a cardioid mode -- great suggestion. I could just do everything else outboard (streamer, analog).

Don't know how to understand your quotes above. Specifically, what devides market segments in your view as performance seems not so important - maybe price? In any case, cardioid mode is obviously something you want to have.

With regard to the latter, let me point out that the Orbit's cardioid mode is simply more effective in the midrange than for CDM65 and Kii 7. Put the Orbits right at the wall and you don't get rear-wall cancellation notches either (this means no disadvantage of less low-frequency extension of cardiod mode).

Green lines in below plots show rear-wall reflection level. Especially 5dB higher reduction of midrange reflections will give improved sound image depth and focus. That's why I would prefer the Orbits over CDM65 and Kii 7 when it comes to cardioid performance. In Kii 7 plot, the rear wall bounce is a bit hard to see due to thin line and pink color. It's comparable to CDM65.

There is also no other performance gap between Orbits and similar sized Kii/Mesanovic speakers that isn't at least compensated by another valueable feature. Horizontal directivity is better for Kii/Mesa but vertical is much better for Palmer. Bass output of the Orbits is higher than for both other speakers. The Orbit's harmonic distortion is lower than Kii 7 and similar to CDM65. Intermodulation distortion is quite similar for all of them.

While built quality and finish is comparable for Palmer and Kii Audio, the full aluminium enclosure of the Orbits just puts them on a bit higher level. Mesanovic cannot compete on finish.

Finally you don't need SW nor have to crawl behind the speakers to reach all settings of the Orbits because Palmer cared for user-friendly integration of filter controls on top of the speakers. Combine them with a good streamer that includes EQ and you get a small but capable audio system that is easily fullrange in a small room. The other speakers may have been good offers before the Orbits existed. That's over now. So unless you want expensive speakers because of their price, the Palmers are worth serious consideration.

With all that said, I can repeat what I wrote earlier. If performance is most important, C8C is the way to go.