Cardioid Loudspeakers - Are they worth it?

[sigbergaudio]

But the neighbours are not at the listening position and the dB levels away from the listening position will be lower. And that is what the neighbours will, on average, be hearing.

Maybe. But will it be significant enough to be a purchasing argument / that the neighbours will hear much difference?

 

[janbth]

But cardioid speakers aren't inherently less loud, they are more directional.

So if you are listening at 75dB in the listening position, a higher percentage of the sound you are hearing is direct energy (rather than reflected energy), compared to a traditional speaker. But it's still 75dB. So yes, some sound is cancelled out, but the sound going towards the listener is comparably louder, otherwise it wouldn't still be 75dB in the listening position.

So a cardioid bass system at an outdoors concert will have less energy for the neighbours since the bass is directed towards the crowd. In a small living room, I suspect the result is a bit more complicated.

I guess the sound energy in the room is distributed differently when the speakers are cardoids (compared to omnis). More energy resides on the side of the listening position, and less at the speaker side (I assume). If this is correct, then the neighbor behind the front wall will hear less sound leakage, and the neighbor behind the back will hear more.

 

[Grimoire]

Maybe.

Definitely.

Cardioid speakers partially self-cancel their output. Therefore they put less energy into the room for the same SPL at the listening position. And if there is less energy in the room there is less energy to be transmitted to adjacent properties. QED.

 

[sigbergaudio]

Definitely.

Cardioid speakers partially self-cancel their output. Therefore they put less energy into the room for the same SPL at the listening position. And if there is less energy in the room there is less energy to be transmitted to adjacent properties. QED.

I don't think there isn't less energy in the room, there is less reflected energy in the listening position.

 

[Grimoire]

I don't think there isn't less energy in the room, there is less reflected energy in the listening position.

There is less energy emitted by the speaker system, therefore there is less energy in the room. Simple physics. Less energy to be reflected equals less energy overall.

 

[sigbergaudio]

There is less energy emitted by the speaker system, therefore there is less energy in the room. Simple physics. Less energy to be reflected equals less energy overall.

I guess I'm no expert, but if there is less energy in the room, the sound would be softer, no? I assume we are talking about a situation where the sound pressure in the listening position is the same, otherwise you could just turn down the volume on a regular system and achieve the same effect (neighourwise).

So let's say we have a cardioid and non-cardioid system which are both equally effective. If we send 1W into the non-cardioid system, it will as you say emit more energy than the cardioid-system. But since the cardioid system will emit less energy, the sound level of the reflections will be lower (as per design), and as such the total SPL at the listening position will also be lower. So what will the listener do? Turn up the volume to compensate. The result is the same SPL at the listening position, and probably not that huge difference in emitted energy, but a higher percentage of the energy is directional (again per design).

The goal of cardioid is to increase the amount of directional energy compared to reflected energy, not necessarily reduce emitted energy overall (even though that may be a small side effect).

The emitted energy is slightly lower in the cardioid design since the direct sound is more effective than the reflected sound, but I still doubt this will be super significant from the perspective of the neighbour.

 

[Grimoire]

No! The user will have the same SPL with less energy emitted to the room!!!

Take a while and think about it. It cannot be other than what I am saying.

 

[RexrothPigeon]

Is this right?

An amount of energy will be perceived as louder or quieter in the listening position depending on how much of that energy is directed at the listening position and not in other directions. So while it's true that if you listen to cardoid speakers or non-cardoid speakers at 75db there is still 75db of energy in the room, if 75db at the listening position is what you want, non-cardioid speakers will need to produce >75db overall.

 

[sigbergaudio]

No! The user will have the same SPL with less energy emitted to the room!!!

Well, I have already admitted that it will be slightly less energy, but I doubt it will be so huge of a difference that the neighbours suddenly hear nothing.

Take a while and think about it. It cannot be other than what I am saying.

Since I design cardioid loudspeakers I actually have thought about it quite a bit. And from a more practical perspective, I've been around cardioid speakers quite a bit. In one of my rooms one of the speakers is situated towards an area that opens up to the side of the speaker, so it's possible to actually walk past the speaker. And there is certainly less bass on the side and on the rear, again that is the whole point. But if I go to a different room in the house, there's not suddenly very quiet compared to normal speakers. I have not A-B tested it, but I think "your neighbours will not be disturbed" is pretty far down on the feature list to consider when purchasing cardioid speakers.

 

[Grimoire]

Is this right?

An amount of energy will be perceived as louder or quieter in the listening position depending on how much of that energy is directed at the listening position and not in other directions. So while it's true that if you listen to cardoid speakers or non-cardoid speakers at 75db there is still 75db of energy in the room, if 75db at the listening position is what you want, non-cardioid speakers will need to produce >75db overall.

Cardioid speakers will cancel (to varying degrees depending on the particular speakers) the sound going to the back and sides of the speaker. Simply put, they don't put out energy where it's not needed and is usually detrimental. For the same SPL at the listening position. So, loosely speaking, you are right.

 

[sigbergaudio]

Is this right?

An amount of energy will be perceived as louder or quieter in the listening position depending on how much of that energy is directed at the listening position and not in other directions. So while it's true that if you listen to cardoid speakers or non-cardoid speakers at 75db there is still 75db of energy in the room, if 75db at the listening position is what you want, non-cardioid speakers will need to produce >75db overall.

Yes, but significant enough of a difference that neighbours will suddenly not be disturbed? That was the original question.

 

[audiofooled]

The more control you have over the resonances in your room, your neighbor would hear clearer, "tighter" and higher quality low frequency transients. However, perceived loudness of sustained low frequencies would still depend on his room modal behavior. Neighbor would still hear much higher pressure, for example at the corner of his room at some frequencies, but also frequency dependent cancellations/attenuation at nulls. It could be potentially less annoying subjectively and contribute to much lower perceived loudness.

So, the longer your room "rings", the greater potential for more energy transmission to the other room, hence much increased pressure when hitting the frequencies which are exciting his room resonances, if it makes sense.

 

[Grimoire]

Well, I have already admitted that it will be slightly less energy, but I doubt it will be so huge of a difference that the neighbours suddenly hear nothing.



Since I design cardioid loudspeakers I actually have thought about it quite a bit. And from a more practical perspective, I've been around cardioid speakers quite a bit. In one of my rooms one of the speakers is situated towards an area that opens up to the side of the speaker, so it's possible to actually walk past the speaker. And there is certainly less bass on the side and on the rear, again that is the whole point. But if I go to a different room in the house, there's not suddenly very quiet compared to normal speakers. I have not A-B tested it, but I think "your neighbours will not be disturbed" is pretty far down on the feature list to consider when purchasing cardioid speakers.

You've lapsed into anecdote and speculation now. I'm talking physics. And as your speakers are only cardioid down to about 100hz at best, you may not have the experience necessary to make such claims.

 

[sigbergaudio]

You've lapsed into anecdote and speculation now. I'm talking physics.

So practical experiments have no value?

I have the means to actually test this, by measuring in an adjacent room with cardioid and non-cardioid speakers that are playing at a sound level that is the same in the listening position. If I do this with say 80dB in the listening position. What do you expect the difference in dB between cardioid and non-cardioid to be if I measure with an SPL-meter in the next room?

 

[janbth]

In one of my rooms one of the speakers is situated towards an area that opens up to the side of the speaker, so it's possible to actually walk past the speaker. And there is certainly less bass on the side and on the rear, again that is the whole point. But if I go to a different room in the house, there's not suddenly very quiet compared to normal speakers.

Yes, but are all the different rooms equally quiet? What if you compare the one behind the front wall to the one behind the back wall?

I think the point is that the same energy emitted into the room is distributed differently for cardioids and non-cardioids.

 

[Grimoire]

So practical experiments have no value?

I have the means to actually test this, by measuring in an adjacent room with cardioid and non-cardioid speakers that are playing at a sound level that is the same in the listening position. If I do this with say 80dB in the listening position. What do you expect the difference in dB between cardioid and non-cardioid to be if I measure with an SPL-meter in the next room?

Then do it.

But that will be for you with your speakers that are cardioid down to 100Hz at best, higher for the Saranna and not at all for the others.

And your domestic circumstances are unlikely to be representative.

I thought that you respected the laws of physics. My mistake.

 

[janbth]

So while it's true that if you listen to cardoid speakers or non-cardoid speakers at 75db there is still 75db of energy in the room, if 75db at the listening position is what you want, non-cardioid speakers will need to produce >75db overall.

SPL is measured at a location in the room, it is not a measure of the total energy in the room. Power is a more appropriate measure. So, I think a cardioid would need to provide less power to produce 75 dB at the listening position compared to a non-cardioid.

 

[Grimoire]

Yes, but are all the different rooms equally quiet? What if you compare the one behind the front wall to the one behind the back wall?

I think the point is that the same energy emitted into the room is distributed differently for cardioids and non-cardioids.

Wrong. The energy emitted to the room is lower for cardioids.

 

[Grimoire]

SPL is measured at a location in the room, it is not a measure of the total energy in the room. Power is a more appropriate measure. So, I think a cardioid would need to provide less power to produce 75 dB at the listening position compared to a non-cardioid.

Your edited post is correct.

 

[RexrothPigeon]

Yes, but significant enough of a difference that neighbours will suddenly not be disturbed? That was the original question.

That I don't know. I was just testing if I was following along properly and I have no answers to offer haha, sorry!
(I do have cardioid speakers, though...)