Balle Clorin
Major Contributor
- Joined
- Dec 26, 2017
- Messages
- 1,330
- Likes
- 1,209
-
WANTED: Happy members who like to discuss audio and other topics related to our interest. Desire to learn and share knowledge of science required. There are many reviews of audio hardware and expert members to help answer your questions. Click here to have your audio equipment measured for free!
Cardioid Loudspeakers - Are they worth it?
I will PM you to avoid taking this thread OT.
Mariner9
Member
- Joined
- Nov 13, 2020
- Messages
- 56
- Likes
- 41
How do you make a fair comparison? I presume that would have to be based on getting similar measurements rather than simply buying the same kit (A/D, DAC, amps, etc.) in each active speaker. If so, what combination of separates would be comparable to, say, the Kiis or D&Ds?
No, you could only compare to another full range set-up , mains, properly integrated subwoofers, amps, decent dac, external EQ etc.
When you realise what is actually needed for really high quality sound reproduction you arrive at the modern contemporary active designs.
Keith
When you realise what is actually needed for really high quality sound reproduction you arrive at the modern contemporary active designs.
Keith
That could definitely be the case, at least to match their objective measured performance.
Now what about the discernable performance?
Can someone (trained and/or untrained) in a controlled test setup environment tell a difference between the two? And if they can, do they always point out to the 15k euros cardioids instead of the old-school setup? I would include multiple price points for the old-school setup and see at which point there is no discernable difference and/or they pick their preferred setup randomly between the two.
Feels to me that we could (I really emphasis the could here) have a similar case as the claimed discernability of DACs.
Disclaimer: I won't be able, and not sure that I'd want to spend the price of a new car in a pair of speakers and/or an audio setup (at least not in a foreseeable future).
Last edited:
- Thread Starter
- #27
^^^
In many ways, that’s what my question would really boildown to
How cardioid can have an advantage, but is it really a meaningful advantage? (when taking the whole image into account)
Like say you had a full setup (Satellites + bass bins/larger towers, multi-sub, room correction, room treatment, and such) - would it really be worth the effort to design/DIY a cardioid speaker?
As it seems that the level effort needed to get a cardioid design right (to play nicely with the room) could be more easily done with many of the techniques above
Now this certainly isn’t a knock against any of the cardioid designs we’ve seen, as they are certainly impressive - but I wonder if one of the more impressive elements of something like the D&D 8C is more so the boundary coupled subwoofers than the use of a cardioid midrange, or the Kii Three’s use of many woofers + EQ to effectively force it to do more than a typical 1” + 6” design could do
In many ways, that’s what my question would really boildown to
How cardioid can have an advantage, but is it really a meaningful advantage? (when taking the whole image into account)
Like say you had a full setup (Satellites + bass bins/larger towers, multi-sub, room correction, room treatment, and such) - would it really be worth the effort to design/DIY a cardioid speaker?
As it seems that the level effort needed to get a cardioid design right (to play nicely with the room) could be more easily done with many of the techniques above
Now this certainly isn’t a knock against any of the cardioid designs we’ve seen, as they are certainly impressive - but I wonder if one of the more impressive elements of something like the D&D 8C is more so the boundary coupled subwoofers than the use of a cardioid midrange, or the Kii Three’s use of many woofers + EQ to effectively force it to do more than a typical 1” + 6” design could do
Last edited:
The only way is to compare yourself in your room, cardioid is just one aspect ( of the 8c ) to that you have to add their bass extension, constant directivity, adjustability, built in tone controls/ peq etc etc .
I am almost certain I have mentioned this before but D&D used to make an 8M model similar to the 8C but without the twin bass woofers and cardioid response, obviously bass extension was different but the 8C was less congested, you simply heard more, that has been my experience comparing cardioid, Kii/8C/GNTKT to non cardioid designs, but as always you must compare for yourself.
Keith
I am almost certain I have mentioned this before but D&D used to make an 8M model similar to the 8C but without the twin bass woofers and cardioid response, obviously bass extension was different but the 8C was less congested, you simply heard more, that has been my experience comparing cardioid, Kii/8C/GNTKT to non cardioid designs, but as always you must compare for yourself.
Keith
- Thread Starter
- #29
With the 8M vs. 8C, I feel like that would open the discussion to as to whether or not the cardioid aspect is the defining piece of it
And I think it would be a decent place to begin a comparison, as they are so similar
Such as the fact that the 8C is a better performer than the 8M makes me wonder is it that the 8C is cardioid, or is it because it’s a 2-way vs. 3-way (with bass extension being quite a large factor in subjective impressions of a speaker)
As your description of the 8C being, “less congested” makes me wonder if it’s more so the rear coupled subwoofers doing a lot of the heavy lifting (bass), leaving the actual middriver to work more optimally within its bandwidth - as they both use similar cabinets, waveguides, baffle dimensions, and other such technical elements
Furthermore - it would be quite difficult to evaluate them for myself, hence this discussion
And I think it would be a decent place to begin a comparison, as they are so similar
Such as the fact that the 8C is a better performer than the 8M makes me wonder is it that the 8C is cardioid, or is it because it’s a 2-way vs. 3-way (with bass extension being quite a large factor in subjective impressions of a speaker)
As your description of the 8C being, “less congested” makes me wonder if it’s more so the rear coupled subwoofers doing a lot of the heavy lifting (bass), leaving the actual middriver to work more optimally within its bandwidth - as they both use similar cabinets, waveguides, baffle dimensions, and other such technical elements
Furthermore - it would be quite difficult to evaluate them for myself, hence this discussion
I deliberately chose vocal/ pieces with no low bass for the comparison, perhaps cardioid as a feature on its own might not justify purchase, but just like phase coherence, perfect step why not have it if it is included.
Keith
Keith
In a typical stereo setup, the earliest (and loudest) reflections come from the floor and ceiling. A cardioid response does little to reduce those reflections. A cardioid response does do a good job of reducing reflections from the front wall, but well designed on-wall speakers will do the same while benefiting from the reinforcement, rather than sacrificing efficiency. On-wall placement can be trouble for room nodes, but bass should be addressed with multiple subwoofers anyway.
Hi All,
I've been lurking here for a long time and learned A LOT - big thanks to the community for all the invaluable inspiration and input!
Cardioids are a special interest since I'm currently working on a design of my own.
I found this paper by Olli Kantamaa on the DiyAudio forum:
https://aaltodoc.aalto.fi/bitstream...Kantamaa_Olli_2020.pdf?sequence=2&isAllowed=y
Finland seems to be the place where a lot work has been done on this particular subject by people like Backman, Louhivaara, Manninen, Salmi, and Kimmo Saunisto.
I've been lurking here for a long time and learned A LOT - big thanks to the community for all the invaluable inspiration and input!
Cardioids are a special interest since I'm currently working on a design of my own.
I found this paper by Olli Kantamaa on the DiyAudio forum:
https://aaltodoc.aalto.fi/bitstream...Kantamaa_Olli_2020.pdf?sequence=2&isAllowed=y
Finland seems to be the place where a lot work has been done on this particular subject by people like Backman, Louhivaara, Manninen, Salmi, and Kimmo Saunisto.
Last edited:
The conclusion of that paper is interesting, everything is better, nothing is worse.
- Joined
- Jun 5, 2016
- Messages
- 2,864
- Likes
- 4,653
My quibble here is room mode issues typically extend beyond a subwoofer system’s passband. A dipole or cardioid could have smoother response over the 100-400Hz (give or take) because it energizes modes differently. I guess it could be worse, too.
IMO attempting alternate radiation patterns below 100Hz or so is silly. You kill efficiency and the gains are basically naught compared to equalized closed boxes.
I find it interesting that there is an emerging challenge to what seems to be the current pervasive standpoint with it’s reasoning influenced by people like Gedlee:
“In a small room, i.e. not an auditorium, there is very little to be gained from a directional bass source. SO basically all of the configurations that you showed are simply ways to expend more money with no net gain.”
and/or the 2003 Backman AES paper:
“As a summary of the results presented above for the room-speaker interaction it can be stated that cardioid source has more immunity against changes in source placement or room absorption in sparsely modal range. Below the lowest mode the cardioid speaker does not have any advantage over the monopole source, but both exhibit higher output and less source position dependence than the dipole speaker. These results indicate that creating a loudspeaker that has a unidirectional polar pattern [cardioid] in the sparsely modal region and omnidirectional below the lowest mode represents a good compromise between low frequency output capability and avoiding room coloration effects.”
Last edited:
That's kind of exactly what it is, plus to extend control lower than even wide speakers. In many ways they are actually more similar to sofit mounted speakers, but without the efficiency gains.
Jose Hidalgo
Addicted to Fun and Learning
8k euros, not 12
A pair of D&D 8C Studio costs 7.990 € and they are strictly identical sound-wise. They just lack Roon integration and fancy wood. If there's a better loudspeaker for less money, I have yet to find it.
- Joined
- Jan 15, 2020
- Messages
- 6,871
- Likes
- 16,828
Best depends on personal priorities and thus cant be generalised, for example if you have good room acoustics and/or the freedom of placement that a (just upper bass) cardioid is not so important you can get (at least in my country) for 8k€ also a pair of Neumann KH420 or Genelec 8351b which have some other advantages.8k euros, not 12
kimmosto
Active Member
- Joined
- Sep 12, 2019
- Messages
- 215
- Likes
- 513
Cardioid bass in a small room compared to much larger semi-open concept living space.
Attachments
Similar threads
