Cardioid Loudspeakers - Are they worth it?

[D4C_20]

Good day everyone -

So I’ve been looking into various methods of applying a cardioid response into different designs - things like resistive enclosures, active methods with rear drivers, and such

The thing that concerns me is that I’ve always wondered if it’s actually worth the effort - I’ve read different opinions from all parts of the web (which certainly doesn’t help...)

Such as the idea that cardioid isn’t all that meaningful into the modal region of the room/in an acoustically small room (which I recall Dr. Geddes saying that basically a typical room in your home is an acoustically small space), and would just end up costing output, or would just lead to increased distortion

As such, if y’all could help me work through this question as to whether or not it would be worth the effort - I would greatly appreciate it

-Thanks

 

[pozz]

If you consider how much effort has to be put into acoustical treatment to damp sound moving from the back of the speakers to the front wall, cardioids seem pretty worth it.

 

[Purité Audio]

Try a pair, compare to a similar non cardiod specification loudspeaker, compare measurements, comparing in your own room is the most valid method.
Keith

 

[Hephaestus]

In a domestic room it is going to be easier to get upper bass right with cardioid design as you have less potential SBIR issues to worry about.
Might even excite less certain room modes..

 

[Soniclife]

In a domestic room it is going to be easier to get upper bass right with cardioid design as you have less potential SBIR issues to worry about.
Might even excite less certain room modes..

That matches the in-room response measurements I've seen posted here, especially clear when you look at the real measured in room response overlaid on the predicted in room response. The 100 - 500 Hz region is much less affected by the room, and that's a region with a lot of musical energy in it.

 

[phoenixdogfan]

Is it fair to say as a practical matter the cardoid design effectively lowers the Schroeder frequency, thereby making the measured in room response more like the PIR to a much lower frequency?

 

[oursmagenta]

If you consider how much effort has to be put into acoustical treatment to damp sound moving from the back of the speakers to the front wall, cardioids seem pretty worth it.

It also depends on your budget and waf threshold.
The entry price starting at around 12k euros for the D&D 8c, it seems to me (what I will say next is speculative) that achieving full bass extension + less SBIR is doable with a more cost effective system.
Good mains (Kef, Revel, etc ...)
Good sub(s) (SVS, Monolith, etc ...)
Panels (for the main speakers sbir), Dirac (for the sub(s)).

At least I would give it some thoughts before jumping into these nice cardioids actives.
And it's not like they are some silver bullet for the sbir/resonance issues.

Original post: https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...easurements.12111/#lg=attachment54830&slide=0

 

[Purité Audio]

Wouldn’t ‘good’ mains, subwoofers, broadband acoustic treatment, plus of course amps,dac be more expensive that the cardioid speakers?
Keith

 

[oursmagenta]

Wouldn’t ‘good’ mains, subwoofers, broadband acoustic treatment, plus of course amps,dac be more expensive that the cardioid speakers?
Keith

I don't know, that's why I kind of raised the question/issue. It doesn't seem obvious to me that the cardioids would be cheaper though.

 

[Purité Audio]

I guess it’s where you start from, you can certainly get extremely good results from really decent passive mains, properly integrated subs and eq, but it isn’t just the cardioid response that makes the new actives so appealing it is their combination of features, full-range, constant directivity etc etc.
Always compare everything in your room.
Keith

 

[oursmagenta]

I guess it’s where you start from, you can certainly get extremely good results from really decent passive mains, properly integrated subs and eq, but it isn’t just the cardioid response that makes the new actives so appealing it is their combination of features, full-range, constant directivity etc etc.
Always compare everything in your room.
Keith

I would even say that the cardioids feature really feels like a gimmick small improvement at this point because the provided solution to sbir, and room resonance is really far from perfect. The in-room response from the 8c I just link to seems full of resonance + sbir issues.

For the rest, yes they have insanely flat anaechonic frequency response, they are loud, easy to integrate, compact, no-amp needed etc ...

 

[Ilkless]

I would even say that the cardioids feature really feels like a gimmick small improvement at this point because the provided solution to sbir, and room resonance is really far from perfect. The in-room response from the 8c I just link to seems full of resonance + sbir issues.

For the rest, yes they have insanely flat anaechonic frequency response, they are loud, easy to integrate, compact, no-amp needed etc ...

Maybe propose a system with even better SBIR performance then. If you read the scale, that's +/-2.5dB, stellar as far as these things go. I understand that ASR distorts expectations, but some perspective is required.

 

[oursmagenta]

Maybe propose a system with even better SBIR performance then. If you read the scale, that's +/-2.5dB, stellar as far as these things go. I understand that ASR distorts expectations, but some perspective is required.

Ok, fair enough. My knowledge + experience won't be sufficient to continue the conversation (unless I want to dig my own grave). If anyone more armed want to jump on this ...

 

[Purité Audio]

I would even say that the cardioids feature really feels like a gimmick small improvement at this point because the provided solution to sbir, and room resonance is really far from perfect. The in-room response from the 8c I just link to seems full of resonance + sbir issues.

For the rest, yes they have insanely flat anaechonic frequency response, they are loud, easy to integrate, compact, no-amp needed etc ...

If you send Pm me your address I will send you some REW plots of some large three way Focals, versus 8Cs measured in the same position from and engineers studio install.
Really far better to measure/compare/listen in your own space.
Keith

 

[Soniclife]

And it's not like they are some silver bullet for the sbir/resonance issues.

My reading of that graph from @napilopez is that it shows the cardioid is helping, as that's a good in room result, no one is suggesting that this is able to fix all room issues.

Look at the following 2 in room results as measured by @hardisj.

One of these things is not like the other.

 

[NTK]

It seems both JJ and Dr. Toole think omni-bass is the way to go. (JJ's post, follow up question, clarification; Floyd Toole's post)

 

[GDK]

I have no doubt that cardioid speakers can help dealing with SBIR, but you can also go a long way with some simple floor standers, a couple of subs and some good room correction software.

Here are my measurements (1/12 smoothed; L, R and average) using the above combination in a very acoustically challenged room:

 

[bo_knows]

Wouldn’t ‘good’ mains, subwoofers, broadband acoustic treatment, plus of course amps,dac be more expensive that the cardioid speakers?
Keith

YES!

Challenge is how to integrate those speakers into the existing home theater setup with the receiver that has only a single end pre-out.

 

[amadeuswus]

It also depends on your budget and waf threshold.
The entry price starting at around 12k euros for the D&D 8c

I am not the only person on this forum who is hoping the Gradient Revolutions will be measured here... but a used pair of Revolutions would be a lot cheaper than 12k euros/dollars. I've seen offers in the US for ~ $1400. It's said to be cardioid down to the 200hz crossover to dipole bass. Not as low as the OP may have had in mind though.

https://www.gradient.fi/en/loudspeakers/5-gradient-revolution.html

ps. I see from this German review that the active version is no bargain in Europe:
https://www.gradient.fi/img/cms/mw 111 gradient.pdf

 

[MGG]

I had opportunity to acquire active version of Gradient Revolutions, new with warrenty, for € 2000 last year. I'll get over it... eventually.