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Capacitor upgrade in crossover - You CAN'T handle the TRUTH! - Part 3

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ctrl

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I am assuming that the reproduction potential of high-quality loudspeakers cannot be fully captured by measuring microphones (i used a UMIK-1 and the original supplied measuring microphone) ....For me this is a indication that the measuring method is probably the bottleneck here. It could be the same with the capacitor measurements.
You've claimed this several times in the thread now, but again today the technical justification for your assumption is missing. What is the technical reasoning behind your assumption?

A good measurement microphone will outperform the human ear in frequency resolution (depends on sampling rate), frequency range (10hz - >20khz) and dynamic range (>140dBspl <3%THD).

Condenser microphones are also used for studio recordings or live recordings. This means that if these microphones cannot fully pick up certain musical details, then these details will also not be present on the recording and especially not when the recordings are played back through "high-quality loudspeakers".
 

SIY

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How do you test for that?
If your meter doesn’t measure it directly, run a voltage through a resistor in series with the cap. Choose the value to give you, say, a 30 second time constant. After a long enough time to let the cap charge, say 10 time constants or more, measure the voltage across the resistor to get the leakage current.
 

pogo

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Yeah, an accurate bass response does sound disappointing at first. It's not "exciting".

I had the same experience when I tried to EQ a pair of headphones for the first time. It sounds flat and boring to begin with.

It takes time for the brain to recognize and appreciate the control and authority of a good flat bass response.

Let your brain do some burn-in, or just enjoy the room modes without correction.

That could be the solution.
See below:

Earthworks FAQ - 02 / Technical
'Why do you make microphones that exceed 20kHz?'
Link: Earthworks FAQ

With such a microphone (type M50, …), the happening in the room can really be captured correctly, i.e. deliver optimal data for the correction calculation.
I will do my next attempt with a UMIK-2 instead of my UMIK-1. An improvement should be audible here.
 

SIY

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FWIW, I ran the Dirac measurements with both the NAD-supplied mic and a PCB lab grade condenser. No significant difference.
 

richard12511

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Hello to all folks around, I registered just to follow this thread.

Replacing one part with another of identical specs and getting the same result makes sense. However, you have to agree that there are many similar threads, posts and experiences from different users, who all claim they hear some difference.

Agreed, some difference may come from age-altered specs of old capacitors that were replaced with a brand new ones. However, if expensive capacitors do not make any change in the sound, why are they used by speakers manufacturers at all? If they all sound the same, why don't we just see a basic $3 crossovers in speakers, especially in ones under $1000-$1500 price?
I seriously doubt that a manufacturer would bother to put better caps in a relatively cheap speaker, if they don't do anything at all. Most of buyers (especially buyers of more affordable equipment) doesn't have a clue about that stuff and the rest of them won't really care.

The incentive is there because most customers still believe they do make a difference. You can see ample evidence of that in the responses to this thread, and this is the most science oriented consumer audio forum there is. Other forums are likely 90%+ believers. That same incentive is there in all sectors of audio components. For example, I'd bet most good DAC manufacturers know that their more expensive models don't make any difference at all over their entry product, but they also know that the customers don't know that. It's a great way to make money. What matters is not what the manufacturer believes, but what the customer believes.
 

trl

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You've claimed this several times in the thread now, but again today the technical justification for your assumption is missing. What is the technical reasoning behind your assumption?

A good measurement microphone will outperform the human ear in frequency resolution (depends on sampling rate), frequency range (10hz - >20khz) and dynamic range (>140dBspl <3%THD).

Condenser microphones are also used for studio recordings or live recordings. This means that if these microphones cannot fully pick up certain musical details, then these details will also not be present on the recording and especially not when the recordings are played back through "high-quality loudspeakers".
You don't need a mic to do these tests, you can connect directly to tweeter wires an ADC, then compare the differences with DeltaWave. This way nobody here will blame the mic or you for not respecting the exact distance and angle between measurements.
 

pogo

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You've claimed this several times in the thread now, but again today the technical justification for your assumption is missing. What is the technical reasoning behind your assumption?

See also my thread #113

I find trl's approach very promising using DeltaWave without a microphone.
 

pogo

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FWIW, I ran the Dirac measurements with both the NAD-supplied mic and a PCB lab grade condenser. No significant difference.

Which devices were used within the signal chain (model no.)?
What does you mean with 'No significant difference'?
 

dennnic

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Can anyone explain why do we see some oil impregnated capacitors (mundorf's selling them for a price of a cheep pair of speakers) and what is their implication in audio?
 

Killingbeans

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See also my thread #113

I find trl's approach very promising using DeltaWave without a microphone.

I'm getting those Don Quijote vibes again :confused:

Can anyone explain why do we see some oil impregnated capacitors (mundorf's selling them for a price of a cheep pair of speakers) and what is their implication in audio?

Pure grade A snake oil.
 

SIY

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Which devices were used within the signal chain (model no.)?
What does you mean with 'No significant difference'?
You can read my review of the NAD M10 online at AudioXpress website for hardware details.

Acoustic measurements have some variances, even when using the same mic and position. If I said “no difference” without qualification, some eristic fellow would complain that no two measurements are exactly the same.
 
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ctrl

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You don't need a mic to do these tests, you can connect directly to tweeter wires an ADC, then compare the differences with DeltaWave. This way nobody here will blame the mic or you for not respecting the exact distance and angle between measurements.
I find trl's approach very promising using DeltaWave without a microphone.

Well, unfortunately I don't own a special ADC-USB measuring device, respectively I don't have sufficient electronic knowledge to perform such a measurement safely via an audio interface (if possible).

But the real reason to investigate audio components in this way at all was that in many forums where electronic measurements of audio components are presented, the argumentation always boils down to the claim that there are still undiscovered physical effects (that many don't want to admit) have decisive influences on the sound and that cannot be measured electronically in the conventional way.

As said in previous posts, all this is omitted when measuring by microphone. No one in their right mind would claim that high-end capacitors change the direction of movement of air molecules and thus create a better spatial representation. All mechanical capacitor resonances, advantages of "thinner dielectric insulator allows for a capacitor with less “memory” and one that is much faster reacting", etc. all these effects (if they exist) are captured in the measurement.

The point is not to show measurable differences (at the same capacitance) between capacitors, those exist and are shown in my RLC measurements.

What is important is whether these differences are audible to people. This is exactly what the recordings in the next part are supposed to show.
I am open to be surprised by audible differences, contrary to my previous measurements and conviction.
.
 
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trl

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Well, unfortunately I don't own a special ADC-USB measuring device
The same audio interface you were doing these measurements.
respectively I don't have sufficient electronic knowledge to perform such a measurement safely via an audio interface (if possible)
Given your work done here, I will ignore your above statement. :) Basically same ARTA may be used, that is "reading" the input from your audio interface and is outputting ARTA built-in audio generator.
 

pogo

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Basically same ARTA may be used, that is "reading" the input from your audio interface and is outputting ARTA built-in audio generator.


I would immediately use real music instead of 'like' static signals from ARTA to cover the non-swung-in state too (see also thread #124).
 
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pogo

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FWIW, I ran the Dirac measurements with both the NAD-supplied mic and a PCB lab grade condenser. No significant difference.
You can read my review of the NAD M10 online at AudioXpress website for hardware details.

I don't see a Dirac Live measurement with a PCB lab grade condenser in the article. Is that correct?
By the way, what does "heavily modified NHT M3.3s" mean?
These are very interesting speakers.
 
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Basically same ARTA may be used, that is "reading" the input from your audio interface and is outputting ARTA built-in audio generator.

As I said, I am not an electronics expert, but it is not as "simple" as you suggest.
If the voltage applied to the tweeter or woofer is taken, it is nothing other than the measurement of an power amplifier.
That means you have to take precautions so that the audio interface is not destroyed during the measurement - for example see here.
 

pogo

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If the voltage applied to the tweeter or woofer is taken, it is nothing other than the measurement of an power amplifier.

This statement is incorrect. The capacitor acts like a frequency-dependent resistor, which naturally influences the voltage signal applied to the tweeter.
In addition, the physical behavior of the tweeter also affects the signal to be measured. With this method you should be able to obtain meaningful results if you measure at the same temperature, pressure and at operating temperature (steady state) of the devices.
 
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ctrl

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This statement is incorrect. The capacitor acts like a frequency-dependent resistor, which naturally influences the voltage signal applied to the tweeter.
In addition, the physical behavior of the tweeter also affects the signal to be measured. With this method you should be able to obtain meaningful results if you measure at the same temperature, pressure and at operating temperature (steady state) of the devices.

The statement referred to the danger that exists for the audio interface. The measurement is comparable to the measurement of an power amplifier, where instead of a resistor, the tweeter or woofer with its serial capacitor sits.
.
 
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