Capacitor upgrade in crossover - You CAN'T handle the TRUTH! - Part 3

[YSC]

Not to bother You, but isn't the last statement just tautology? Logically crap isn't useful, as being not useful is the definition of crap ;-)

But how much crap is out there with a quite common product? I doubt there is many. But, admittedly, I'm neither an e/ engineer nor an attorney.

IIRC in recent tear down here or somewhere else, at least focal alpha have quite some really crap rated brand electorlytic caps in their amp... really wonders why cheap this out for reliability issue just for what, less than a cent per cap savings?

 

[levimax]

IIRC in recent tear down here or somewhere else, at least focal alpha have quite some really crap rated brand electorlytic caps in their amp... really wonders why cheap this out for reliability issue just for what, less than a cent per cap savings?

Capacitors, especially large ones, are expensive and second only to the case for most amps BOM costs.

 

[fineMen]

... quite some really crap rated brand electorlytic caps in ...

Bold statement for nothing to back it up. What exactly is "crap rated brand"? Is it because You read the specs of the actual devices, and these didn't comply to it, approved by Your measurement? I'm not asking for Your statistics in examining the output of the vendor You didn't mention by name. What is that?

I think you misunderstood me so I will rephrase. "When testing old capacitors both their capacitance and their ESR need to checked in order to determine if they still meet their specifications". It is entirely possible that 43 year old electrolytic capacitors are fine. Testing capacitors by measuring old speaker output against specifications is a very indirect way of testing their condition and not reliable. It doesn't mean the speakers don't work fine.

You told me that >I< was to measure ESR. Obviously You are just speculating about the ESR, maybe alarmed by internet-hogwash. Why do You think I should take the effort? And then You consequently dismiss the very success of the caps in the product, in disregarding the relevance of the final outcome. What is that?

 

[YSC]

Bold statement for nothing to back it up. What exactly is "crap rated brand"? Is it because You read the specs of the actual devices, and these didn't comply to it, approved by Your measurement? I'm not asking for Your statistics in examining the output of the vendor You didn't mention by name. What is that?


You told me that >I< was to measure ESR. Obviously You are just speculating about the ESR, maybe alarmed by internet-hogwash. Why do You think I should take the effort? And then You consequently dismiss the very success of the caps in the product, in disregarding the relevance of the final outcome. What is that?

Inside the Focal Alpha 65

www.audiosciencereview.com

it is this one which I remember seen a while ago, Chengx caps don't seems like among the better reliability caps. remember in computers they are pretty prone to swelling and die prematurely. crap rater maybe too far for a grade, but then it won't go into any of the "reliable electrolytic cap brands" either

 

[fineMen]

Inside the Focal Alpha 65

www.audiosciencereview.com

it is this one which I remember seen a while ago, Chengx caps don't seems like among the better reliability caps. remember in computers they are pretty prone to swelling and die prematurely. crap rater maybe too far for a grade, but then it won't go into any of the "reliable electrolytic cap brands" either

You introduced rumours regarding a brand being "crap ...". The final statement in that thread so far came also from You. But without any (!) data to prove or even suggest it. Neither the specs are documented, nor the caps being out of specs, and likewise that the usage in that product would somehow use the caps off limits.
Finally I argue that those caps are used in an active speaker in the power section. Thread title here is: "

Capacitor upgrade in crossover - You CAN'T handle the TRUTH!​

What are You after?

 

[Davide]

I am with the dilemma between passive crossover and single amplification, and multiway amplification with digital crossover.
In your opinion there are more risks of failure having a passive crossover or N amplifiers? (considering the capacitors involved in the two solutions I mean).
In my case, I am speaking of 3 way passive crossover (817hz+4750hz) vs 3 Hypex NCxxxMP module.

 

[levimax]

I am with the dilemma between passive crossover and single amplification, and multiway amplification with digital crossover.
In your opinion there are more risks of failure having a passive crossover or N amplifiers? (considering the capacitors involved in the two solutions I mean).
In my case, I am speaking of 3 way passive crossover (817hz+4750hz) vs 3 Hypex NCxxxMP module.

In general passive crossovers are going to be more reliable and "safer" i.e. less to go wrong to blow out your drivers but really if you are smart about the design and use of your system it is not that big of a deal. I think the potential SQ improvements are worth the slight risk. One thing to consider is that for tweeters and even a small midrange any Hypex module has way more power than you need and this is where you can run into problems. Any "protection" scheme is flawed and the best protection is to use lower powered amps especially on the tweeters. An "accident" with a 40 watt amp can likely be survived by a tweeter, with a 200 watt amp doubtful.

 

[Davide]

In general passive crossovers are going to be more reliable and "safer" i.e. less to go wrong to blow out your drivers but really if you are smart about the design and use of your system it is not that big of a deal. I think the potential SQ improvements are worth the slight risk. One thing to consider is that for tweeters and even a small midrange any Hypex module has way more power than you need and this is where you can run into problems. Any "protection" scheme is flawed and the best protection is to use lower powered amps especially on the tweeters. An "accident" with a 40 watt amp can likely be survived by a tweeter, with a 200 watt amp doubtful.

Yes, for the tweeters I have the 50w NC52MP module planned.

 

[YSC]

You introduced rumours regarding a brand being "crap ...". The final statement in that thread so far came also from You. But without any (!) data to prove or even suggest it. Neither the specs are documented, nor the caps being out of specs, and likewise that the usage in that product would somehow use the caps off limits.
Finally I argue that those caps are used in an active speaker in the power section. Thread title here is: "

Capacitor upgrade in crossover - You CAN'T handle the TRUTH!​

What are You after?

Wait I don’t get where your rage comes from, I was just replying your question when another member said that when crap caps are used generally they die first in a system (I think it’s pretty common sense, in most electronics instead of an IC or driver, the electrolytic caps are the ones to die first, when they are of less durability), so when you ask for examples of bad caps being used, I just pick from memory seeing that thread a while ago, thus reply that it’s actually out there with products using bad brands inside speakers, nothing more, that thread of course have my reply also else I won’t have such clear memory

For caps i don’t think failure rate can be found so easily as they are dirt cheap to be documented by consumer or so so no, I don’t have definitive proof that it’s always fails easily, but then in PC power supply etc. there’s a long regarded reliable brands and unreliable ones, the even lesser known ones generally goes into the unknown bad brands which fails easier under load.

Yes the focal evo is having them in the power amp plate, off topic of the crossover topic but it’s just to show that inside speakers they are used, and if fails it likely affects some functionality if not sound signature as its there to do something.

And I have to be clear that I get into this thread long ago to make it into follow list because I completely agrees that audiophile upgrade of crossover caps are meaningless and don’t change a thing when ratings are the same. For me the crap caps vs good ones aren’t changing the <$1 @ Rubycon to some silver caps costing $100+ each, it’s the same <$1 caps we found in all electronics, but bad being less reliable brands vs similarly cheap but very reliable Japanese ones. That’s it, the expensive silver ones are just snake oils

 

[Ola]

In 1982 Mark Levinson sales director was asked "do you design by ear on by measurements?"
He answered: we design by measurements, but if our listening experience does not coincide with measurements, we design new measurements"

The guy who started this discussionn is sure, that everything can be measured with a handheld RCL-meter.
Designing new measurements in this field must start with a long meditation on psycho-physiology of hearing.

Yes, the differences in frequency response are the first things in differences bitween speakers that are noticed, but it's also been proven some 45 years ago
that certain things, like aligning radiating centers of speaker elements, will be clearly hearable only when most of things that affect frequency balance of sound that reaches the ear, are flattened out. Etc etc etc .....

SO: we don't know what people, who are making high-end capacitors and cables, do not tell us about the things they measure in these things.

AND: everybody has a bit different hearing mechanism connected to a different psychology. If you like the sound of you hear, it is good FOR YOU.
And Mother Nature has made things the way that yout GOOD not be as good for some other guy.

 

[BDWoody]

SO: we don't know what people, who are making high-end capacitors and cables, do not tell us about the things they measure in these things.

You think its a secret?

The guy who started this discussionn is sure, that everything can be measured with a handheld RCL-meter.

Is that what he said?

Designing new measurements in this field must start with a long meditation on psycho-physiology of hearing.

Is this your field?

In 1982 Mark Levinson sales director was asked "do you design by ear on by measurements?"
He answered: we design by measurements, but if our listening experience does not coincide with measurements, we design new measurements"

That's a great quote to make people think there is some mystery hidden in there. There isn't.
How about the designer of Quad Amps who takes the opposite approach? No listening needed...
Do you think Benchmark tunes by ear?

AND: everybody has a bit different hearing mechanism connected to a different psychology.

Not really sure what that has to do with whether something can or can't even be heard in the first place.

 

[MAB]

In 1982 Mark Levinson sales director was asked "do you design by ear on by measurements?"
He answered: we design by measurements, but if our listening experience does not coincide with measurements, we design new measurements"

The sales director said this? Verbatim??? Were there audio luminaries in the room? Was anybody in the room who even knew how to do a measurement? The sales director, yes...

The guy who started this discussionn is sure, that everything can be measured with a handheld RCL-meter.

No, that doesn't appear to be the premise of the original poster. Can you show me where they say that? Can you also show that all of the measurements were done with a handheld meter? Are handheld meters OK? If the OP was Spock and the meter was a Tricorder would that be OK? But most importantly, can you show us where the OP said this?

Designing new measurements in this field must start with a long meditation on psycho-physiology of hearing.

That's the great thing about capacitors, they actually don't need new measurements. The physics of how they operate is quite well understood, and they lend themselves to precise electrical characterization with respect to the signal that goes through them. And, each of the capacitor types do have different electrical responses with electrically measurable differences, the better the LCR (or Tricorder) the deeper one can resolve those subtle but simple differences. And the results of those differences can even be measured at the speaker, just not by ear. Certainly not by your or my ears since we are human.

Yes, the differences in frequency response are the first things in differences bitween speakers that are noticed, but it's also been proven some 45 years ago
that certain things, like aligning radiating centers of speaker elements, will be clearly hearable only when most of things that affect frequency balance of sound that reaches the ear, are flattened out. Etc etc etc .....

SO: we don't know what people, who are making high-end capacitors and cables, do not tell us about the things they measure in these things.

Correct, they measure the price, then they measure the cost, then they subtract the two; they never tell you how absurdly high that number is for no benefit to the sound.

But, wait for it, I knew it was coming, the golden-ear argument.

AND: everybody has a bit different hearing mechanism connected to a different psychology. If you like the sound of you hear, it is good FOR YOU.
And Mother Nature has made things the way that yout GOOD not be as good for some other guy.

Plenty of stuff have measurable differences that cannot be heard (like capacitors). If in your meditations you come up with something that can cause an audible change but that cannot be measured, please post!