Capacitor upgrade in crossover - You CAN'T handle the TRUTH! - Part 3

[SIY]

I don't see a Dirac Live measurement with a PCB lab grade condenser in the article. Is that correct?
By the way, what does "heavily modified NHT M3.3s" mean?
These are very interesting speakers.

That's correct. But you asked about the hardware setup, and those details are in the article.

"Heavily modified" means that there's changes in the cabinet volumes and crossovers. Drivers are the same. They are now bi-amped. I have a long article about it on my SYclotron website. Personally, I think they sound very good, but I would think that, wouldn't I?

 

[Killingbeans]

I would immediately use real music instead of 'like' static signals from ARTA to cover the non-swung-in state too (see also thread #124).

Earlier in the thread I pointed out that 'swung-in state' seems to be a desciptor for the position of the mechanical components in a speaker driver. You still haven't given any explanation of how that has any relation to the crossover components whatsoever?

 

[SIY]

Earlier in the thread I pointed out that 'swung-in state' seems to be a desciptor for the position of the mechanical components in a speaker driver. You still haven't given any explanation of how that has any relation to the crossover components whatsoever?

Figure 4 from this article is illustrative.

www.AudioXpress.com/files/attachment/2707

 

[pogo]

"Heavily modified" means that there's changes in the cabinet volumes and crossovers. Drivers are the same. They are now bi-amped. I have a long article about it on my SYclotron website. Personally, I think they sound very good, but I would think that, wouldn't I?

I also like the playback of fluid-damped dome tweeters. My tweeters are separated at low 1600 Hz, which leads to a very good imaging performance.

 

[trl]

If the voltage applied to the tweeter or woofer is taken, it is nothing other than the measurement of an power amplifier.

That should suffice, because you already have great audio measurements already done with a microphone. Testing capacitors with real speakers connected, but with an audio interface directly connected to speaker wires, should be more accurate and you can later compare them with the measurements done by mic.

 

[ctrl]

Testing capacitors with real speakers connected, but with an audio interface directly connected to speaker wires, should be more accurate and you can later compare them with the measurements done by mic.

As said in post#178, the audio interface must be protected from the power amplifier. I don't have such a "protection interface" and I'm not so idiotic and connect my power amplifier directly to the audio interface - that's how much electronics knowledge I have

It works perfectly with the microphone and all arguments about undiscovered physical effects are therefore off the table.

The argument that a condenser measurement microphone would not transmit all the details is also bogus, since in that case, for example, the vast majority of classical recordings (where a condenser mic is usually used) would not contain these details either.
But if these details are not contained in the recording, they cannot be heard in the playback either, and thus a capacitor replacement in the crossover of a speaker would never be noticeable when listening to classical recordings or other recordings made with a condenser mic.

Perhaps someone who has studio recording experience can chime in and comment on the size and thickness of the microphone diaphragm in studio condenser mics compared to measurement mics - my guess is that the thickness and mass of the diaphragm is greater in many recording mics
.

 

[Speedskater]

Perhaps someone who has studio recording experience can chime in and comment on the size and thickness of the microphone diaphragm in studio condenser mics compared to measurement mics - my guess is that the thickness and mass of the diaphragm is greater in many recording mics

Yes, measurement mics are an omnidirectional design with a small (about 1/4 inch) light diaphragm for uniform frequency and non-directional response.
Many studio mics are directional with a large (about 1 inch) heaver diaphragm. By design they often don't have uniform frequency response.

 

[pogo]

As said in post#178, the audio interface must be protected from the power amplifier. I don't have such a "protection interface" and I'm not so idiotic and connect my power amplifier directly to the audio interface - that's how much electronics knowledge I have

From my point of view, a Sinuslive high / low level converter (example) could deliver good results. A kind of active probe, such as is used for signal measurements using an oscilloscope, might be better. The cheap solution would be a good start and should deliver better results than with the microphone.

It works perfectly with the microphone and all arguments about undiscovered physical effects are therefore off the table.

The argument that a condenser measurement microphone would not transmit all the details is also bogus, since in that case, for example, the vast majority of classical recordings (where a condenser mic is usually used) would not contain these details either.
But if these details are not contained in the recording, they cannot be heard in the playback either, and thus a capacitor replacement in the crossover of a speaker would never be noticeable when listening to classical recordings or other recordings made with a condenser mic.

This means that your equipment (microphone and preamplifier) have all the capabilities that are required for high-quality recordings which differently specialized studio or live microphones and a preamplifier such as an Earthworks Microphone Preamp 1021 have!?

 

[SIY]

This means that your equipment (microphone and preamplifier) have all the capabilities that are required for high-quality recordings which differently specialized studio or live microphones and a preamplifier such as an Earthworks Microphone Preamp 1021 have!?

Many measurement mics do. Certainly mine, and my equipment inventory is not exceptional. The Earthworks is an excellent preamp, but there's a LOT of excellent preamps out there.

 

[Rock Rabbit]

The main problem is to try to measure very tiny variations in a multi variable circuit and speakers that are affected by other variables as temperature (mainly capacitance and driver compliance, mechanical resistance, coil resistance) and components tolerances, so you end measuring variability of anything. IMO better use a single tweeter with simple LC filter over resonance and always measure at same temperature, short test (to avoid coil resistance variations) or long test deducing real coil resistance value measuring it at resonance.
Finally some food for thought
https://linearaudio.nl/cyril-batemans-capacitor-sound-articles
It's about distortion...not FR

 

[DonH56]

Studio (and live) recording mics are IME chosen more for their "sound" than their accuracy. A look through the response curves of various highly-regarded mics will show emphasis is usually built-in for the application. Many recordings were made with fairly plebian mics by audiophile standards. And as @SIY said there are a plethora of good microphone preamps around. And again mic pres are often chosen for particular sonic characteristics, then the raw tracks are mixed, EQ'd, and otherwise altered to taste to create the final product. The whole chain is typically capable of very high accuracy but in fact what is required is the flexibility to produce the sound the artist (or producers, marketeers, etc.) desire in the end. Huge dynamic range is desirable to keep the noise floor low through the entire recording/mixing/mastering process but the instruments/vocals don't usually have a "huge" dynamic range. The best tapes were around 80 dB IIRC and most closer to 65 dB for dynamic range, and the final LPs more like 60 dB (with pop/rock often more like 40 dB).

I don't have any high-end mics left, got out of that biz years ago, but have a few midrange AKG mics for occasional recordings (C1000, C3000) and my Earthworks M30 for ambient sound when I want an omni mic and for measurements. Although, my CSL-calibrated UMIK-1 essentially matches the Earthwork's frequency response, though without as low of a noise floor or peak SPL handling, and perhaps not as low of distortion, compared to the M30.

IME/IMO - Don

 

[ctrl]

Finally some food for thought
https://linearaudio.nl/cyril-batemans-capacitor-sound-articles
It's about distortion...not FR

He and "audiphiles" who simply applied his results to loudspeaker crossovers may be the main contributors to the endless "capacitor sound" discussions. As always, the "audiophiles" are to blame

Film capacitors have very low distortion compared to the chassis/tweeter used.
This is the reason why my distortion measurements do not show any differences with different capacitors - the capacitor distortions do not play a role when listening through loudspeakers.

 

[pogo]

Extract from dpamicrophones.com

...
What you cannot determine from specifications:

While microphone specifications indicate a microphone's electro-acoustic performance, they cannot give you the total appreciation of how it will sound. Specifications can detail objective information but cannot convey any subjective sonic experience. For example, a frequency response curve can show you how faithfully the microphone will reproduce the incoming pure sinusoidal frequencies, but not how detailed, well dissolved or transparent the result will be.


Conclusion
Microphone specifications do not tell the whole story about a microphone's quality. There is no substitute for the sonic experience.
...

The same will probably also be the case for speaker, amplifier, etc. measurements.

 

[levimax]

Extract from dpamicrophones.com

...
What you cannot determine from specifications:

While microphone specifications indicate a microphone's electro-acoustic performance, they cannot give you the total appreciation of how it will sound. Specifications can detail objective information but cannot convey any subjective sonic experience. For example, a frequency response curve can show you how faithfully the microphone will reproduce the incoming pure sinusoidal frequencies, but not how detailed, well dissolved or transparent the result will be.


Conclusion
Microphone specifications do not tell the whole story about a microphone's quality. There is no substitute for the sonic experience.
...

The same will probably also be the case for speaker, amplifier, etc. measurements.

Self serving statement from a micrphone sales site with no backup.

 

[SIY]

Self serving statement from a micrphone sales site with no backup.

DPA is a great company who make great products. But yes, ad puffery is not exactly a reliable way to learn about technology.

For recording mike reviews, I like to post sound clips as supplemental material.

 

[DonH56]

Maybe @pogo should start a different thread for debating microphone characteristics? It will get lost in a thread about crossovers...

What little crossover work I did in the past (a fair amount but long ago) showed me differences were often measurable electrically but much harder to impossible to measure acoustically even with a good measurement mic. The speaker's acoustic distortion swamped the electrical.

 

[pogo]

Maybe @pogo should start a different thread for debating microphone characteristics? It will get lost in a thread about crossovers...

Not necessary, because I am only concerned about the target-oriented measuring method and the approach of trl seems to be more effective/meaningful.
But let's wait for the further results of ctrl. Thank you in advance.

 

[Mnyb]

Lets not forget one of the main takeaway of this tread , most hobyist that do this kind of cap replacement or other xover mods do not counter for the effects of tolerance spread which is huge in capacitors , its seems to be the worst component out there in this regard .
So it’s basically not the same xover anymore ! These differences are substantial and easily measured and most likely audible in some cases , this is then the major source of differences.
By thighly matching specs is there any magic left ?

The audiophile anecdotes referred to by some in this tread is not done with this tight components match.
There is therefore an error magnitudes larger then the proposed effect left in thier so called tests .
In fact this tread is the only test I ever seen where the major source of difference is accounted for.
It’s even worse some lauded xover mods also change the other components and also deliberately change the characteristics ( to be fair often for some good reason ) and still the magic capacitor is given much credits and seems as an essential part of the mod ?

 

[maynardg]

You know, it's a hobby. Lots of psychology in the preferences we all have in our hobby. Preferences need no inferences so relax and enjoy the process, the learning and the music.

Some leisure reading on emotion vs cognition in perception.

http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/download?doi=10.1.1.651.9447&rep=rep1&type=pdf

 

[tktran303]

Some years age there was a software program called Audiodiffmaker; by Liberty Instruments ( the maker of Praxis) if I recall correctly.

It allowed you connect a DUT eg. Resistor or capacitor or inductor inline and then played and RECORDED, to a WAV file, a frequency sweep.

Then you switch out the DUT with another, and repeat the process.

Then the program subtracts file 2 from file 1, and then you stick you headphones on, and see if you can hear the subtracted difference!

We’re there difference? Yes.
How big was the difference? Infinitesimally small- you’d have to strain to see if you could the difference between an 85dB signal frequency sweep, or a 85.07dB frequency sweep.
Or you strain your ears to to test if you can hear 0.07dB frequency sweep, compared to digital silence (is it even playing?)


What’s the conclusion.
Like the OP’s conclusion.
So is a $30cap worth it over a $3 cap?

Well maybe, but not for audible reasons-
You can safely choose your caps or resistors due to other reasons (longevity or durability, favourite colour, favourite look, favourite country of origin, low capacitor travel miles)

Anyway, It was the end-game for me and stop my obsession of passive parts upgraditis...