Canton Reference 2023 - is it now Reference grade?

[totti1965]

Following the discussions here, I believe the new Canton Reference 9 is a neutral flat speakers without any color at all? My next plan, most probably end game (well end the buy) speakers will be of 2 choices only: ProAc & Canton. The game will be played with some preamps coloring perhaps, assume every other parts of the chain to be clean. Though heard a lot of saying that ProAc is midrange sweet taste but I can see that many music lovers opt for it.

The Reference 9 isn’t neutral at all. I remember reading the test in German magazine audio at the train station bookstore and was a bit shocked, when I saw the frequency response. I thought it would be flat in their MLSSA measurements, because it’s such a beautiful speaker with nice roundings etc. But there were dips, like in the predecessor, the Reference 9K and a massive 100 Hz boost.
I strongly suggest to be more open minded:
Look at www.spinorama.org !
Choose measuring Quality „High“. You will find two dozens of nice, small interesting speakers, with a nice preference ranking.
If you can do parametric Equalizing (perhaps with roon), than chose „with equalization“….
If you want a passive speaker, then look at the Ascend Acoustics Sierra Lx or the Epos EOS 14 N from Karl-Heinz Fink.
If you consider also aktive speakers, then: What about The Neumann KH 150 or the Neumann KH 120 II.
I think the Pro Ac is more in LS 5/3 range: Not much loved in this forum, even with equalisation.
Yours,

Thorsten

 

[whislai]

The Reference 9 isn’t neutral at all. I remember reading the test in German magazine audio at the train station bookstore and was a bit shocked, when I saw the frequency response. I thought it would be flat in their MLSSA measurements, because it’s such a beautiful speaker with nice roundings etc. But there were dips, like in the predecessor, the Reference 9K and a massive 100 Hz boost.
I strongly suggest to be more open minded:
Look at www.spinorama.org !
Choose measuring Quality „High“. You will find two dozens of nice, small interesting speakers, with a nice preference ranking.
If you can do parametric Equalizing (perhaps with roon), than chose „with equalization“….
If you want a passive speaker, then look at the Ascend Acoustics Sierra Lx or the Epos EOS 14 N from Karl-Heinz Fink.
If you consider also aktive speakers, then: What about The Neumann KH 150 or the Neumann KH 120 II.
I think the Pro Ac is more in LS 5/3 range: Not much loved in this forum, even with equalisation.
Yours,

Thorsten

Thanks for your suggestions. I'm surprised that the Reference 9 is not flat neutral, ok the game can be played then, not that I'm looking for a dead accurate speakers to begin with, and I'm sure a lot of mess happen in audio industry, most indeed already lost in search and investigate for the cause and effect from past to present...

 

[totti1965]

Thanks for your suggestions. I'm surprised that the Reference 9 is not flat neutral, ok the game can be played then, not that I'm looking for a dead accurate speakers to begin with, and I'm sure a lot of mess happen in audio industry, most indeed already lost in search and investigate for the cause and effect from past to present...

It is just 18 months ago that I have found audiosciencereview.com, www.spinorama.org and Erin’s audiocorner. It has changed my view on so many things. First of all, the presumption, that price has anything to do with sound quality.
If you see, that an in-ear-monitor for USD 55,— can sound better than anything at any price, or a USD 110,- power amp is quite equal as a USD 80.000,— power amp - you beginn to think! Espatially how seriously you can take all that fancy magazines or YouTube videos…..

 

[totti1965]

Thanks for your suggestions. I'm surprised that the Reference 9 is not flat neutral, ok the game can be played then, not that I'm looking for a dead accurate speakers to begin with, and I'm sure a lot of mess happen in audio industry, most indeed already lost in search and investigate for the cause and effect from past to present...

And don’t forget: you also can have the best speakers in the world!

For me it’s the HobbyHifi WaveMon 182/22:

Epos ES 14 N - best passive Speaker in SpiNorama.org so far? (7.4/10 with equalisation without subwoofer)

Audiosciencereview member @petrenkas (his name is Anton) and me are owners of the HobbyHifi WaveMon 182/22. Anton has build the speaker 2 months ago completely by hisself. I bought mine directly from Bernd Timmermanns who is the editor of German Selfbuilder Magazin HobbyHifi. Mr. Timmermanns...

www.audiosciencereview.com

thw

 

[dogmamann]

The Reference 9 isn’t neutral at all. I remember reading the test in German magazine audio at the train station bookstore and was a bit shocked, when I saw the frequency response. I thought it would be flat in their MLSSA measurements, because it’s such a beautiful speaker with nice roundings etc. But there were dips, like in the predecessor, the Reference 9K and a massive 100 Hz boost.
I strongly suggest to be more open minded:
Look at www.spinorama.org !
Choose measuring Quality „High“. You will find two dozens of nice, small interesting speakers, with a nice preference ranking.
If you can do parametric Equalizing (perhaps with roon), than chose „with equalization“….
If you want a passive speaker, then look at the Ascend Acoustics Sierra Lx or the Epos EOS 14 N from Karl-Heinz Fink.
If you consider also aktive speakers, then: What about The Neumann KH 150 or the Neumann KH 120 II.
I think the Pro Ac is more in LS 5/3 range: Not much loved in this forum, even with equalisation.
Yours,

Thorsten

When you say they have a massive boost, please try to add the graphs here. Probably you might have mistaken if for something else. I don’t remember 9k to have any boost in any magazine. Which magazine has the reference 9 graph ?

 

[totti1965]

When you say they have a massive boost, please try to add the graphs here. Probably you might have mistaken if for something else. I don’t remember 9k to have any boost in any magazine. Which magazine has the reference 9 graph ?

I found it here (just the predecessor, the Reference 9K - but I was astonished when I saw no progress at all when I have read the April or Mai Issue from German Magazin Audio + stereoplay, when they have tested the new Reference 9 with pretty much the same results: 3 dB elevated Bass, 3 dB elevated high frequencies and as far as I remember there was also this ugly dipp at around 420 Hz):

https://cdn.canton.de/media/29/b2/ab/1679560705/_default_upload_bucket_Reference_9_K_Audio_Test.pdf.pdf

Sorry, but I have not bought the issue, because it is so few information for so much money….

 

[617]

I found it here (just the predecessor, the Reference 9K - but I was astonished when I saw no progress at all when I have read the April or Mai Issue from German Magazin Audio + stereoplay, when they have tested the new Reference 9 with pretty much the same results: 3 dB elevated Bass, 3 dB elevated high frequencies and as far as I remember there was also this ugly dipp at around 420 Hz):

https://cdn.canton.de/media/29/b2/ab/1679560705/_default_upload_bucket_Reference_9_K_Audio_Test.pdf.pdf

Sorry, but I have not bought the issue, because it is so few information for so much money….

Did you used to contribute to TnT audio?

 

[totti1965]

Did you used to contribute to TnT audio?

No, I never wrote for them. TnT is an informative website! Must dive deeper.

 

[617]

No, I never wrote for them. TnT is an informative website! Must dive deeper.

Oh. Must be another Thorsten.

 

[whislai]

And don’t forget: you also can have the best speakers in the world!

For me it’s the HobbyHifi WaveMon 182/22:

Epos ES 14 N - best passive Speaker in SpiNorama.org so far? (7.4/10 with equalisation without subwoofer)

Audiosciencereview member @petrenkas (his name is Anton) and me are owners of the HobbyHifi WaveMon 182/22. Anton has build the speaker 2 months ago completely by hisself. I bought mine directly from Bernd Timmermanns who is the editor of German Selfbuilder Magazin HobbyHifi. Mr. Timmermanns...

www.audiosciencereview.com

thw

Actually it's surprisingly hard for me to find an end game speakers which fit me now, moderate price, curve real wood veneer cabinet, must be standmount bookshelf...few other brands I recheck: ATC or Dynaudio, which is pretty darn power hungry, or perhaps a Spendor

 

[totti1965]

Actually it's surprisingly hard for me to find an end game speakers which fit me now, moderate price, curve real wood veneer cabinet, must be standmount bookshelf...few other brands I recheck: ATC or Dynaudio, which is pretty darn power hungry, or perhaps a Spendor

Well, if it should be passive and has to be not so much larger than a Rogers LS 3/5a AND if you don´t want to build it yourself:
www.spinorama.org loves the Ascend Acoustic speakers (they are made of massive Bamboo, which is nice looking imho)

SIERRA-LX PAIR

Our Latest And Greatest Bookshelf Monitor Class-leading bass extension, massive dynamics and midbass punch, high power handling, exceptionally wide and linear dispersion combined with some of the best measurements in the industry, our new LX is truly something quite unique and special. This is...

ascendacoustics.com

Also a very small speaker for about EUR 2.000 ,-- / pair would perhaps be the EPOS ES-7.
Both developers (David Fabrikant and Karl-Heinz Fink) are using the Klippel near field scanner for their constructions.
The Ascend Acoustics Sierra LX is already objectively tested by www.spinorama.org
Karl-Heinz Fink has already announced that he may make the measurements of his new speakers publicly available so that Pierre Aubert can add them to the spinorama.org database.

The new AsciLab speakers are measuring also extremely well with the Klippel system; they seem to have no coloration at all, but I am afraid, they have no wood veneer.

AsciLab speakers are about to launch

A6b passive version 96dB THD It's the best so far

www.audiosciencereview.com

I wrote some e-Mails to Elac, Magnat and Nubert, to ask them, if they would send the most interesting compact speakers to @amirm or Erin´s audiocorner, for Klippel measurements, but never received an answer by any of them!

A speaker, which I thought could be "End-game" was the Nubert NuVero 60
In case of nubert, some extremely interested audiosciencereview.com and Hififorum members put their money together to send it to @amirm for having the Nubert NuVero 60 tested.
the result is here:

Nubert NuVero 60 Speaker Review

This is a review, listening tests, EQ and detailed measurements of the Nubert NuVero 60 3-way stand-mount speaker. It was kindly sent by a member from Germany and costs €1,650 (US $1780) a pair. I had to take my diffuser out of the lightbox to fit the speaker in there so please pardon the...

www.audiosciencereview.com

So it is a very good speaker, but not overwhelmingly good. And no wooden veneer version aviable...... The spinorama.org result is here:

A collection of loudspeakers measurements

www.spinorama.org

I highly recommend to visit the youtube channel of virtualHifi, and use headphones or in-ear-monitors, to make an informed decision for your next speaker purchase!

or look here for even smaller speakers (!):

They also took a close look at the EPOS ES 14 N (it is avaiable in veneer but perhaps not as rounded as you would like it):

Last but not Least:

Why not sending a letter to Canton, that they may send the Reference 9 to @amirm If they would not be afraid of having it tested by @amirm you would be able to see how it performs. If you would do some equalisation as www.spinorama then, after testing, will suggest, I am sure they will perform very well, because the nice roundings says me, that the equalisation tuning will perform for the room-reflections in a nice way, close to the direct sound....

 

[Penelinfi]

If you're ok with solid hardwood and potential issues with that, there is the March Audio Sointuva AWG. It has some curved edges if that counts lol
You can also get them in MDF? with any paint colour, though you mentioned wood finish .
Non fatiguing white retaining details. You may potentially miss a more in your face spacious airy sound due to the somewhat narrower dispersion.

The philharmonic BMR monitor has extra wide dispersion with a little brighter presentation. A bit of a large size stand mount but then again so are mofi. Comes in curves and wood veneer

 

[whislai]

Well, if it should be passive and has to be not so much larger than a Rogers LS 3/5a AND if you don´t want to build it yourself:
www.spinorama.org loves the Ascend Acoustic speakers (they are made of massive Bamboo, which is nice looking imho)

SIERRA-LX PAIR

Our Latest And Greatest Bookshelf Monitor Class-leading bass extension, massive dynamics and midbass punch, high power handling, exceptionally wide and linear dispersion combined with some of the best measurements in the industry, our new LX is truly something quite unique and special. This is...

ascendacoustics.com

Also a very small speaker for about EUR 2.000 ,-- / pair would perhaps be the EPOS ES-7.
Both developers (David Fabrikant and Karl-Heinz Fink) are using the Klippel near field scanner for their constructions.
The Ascend Acoustics Sierra LX is already objectively tested by www.spinorama.org
Karl-Heinz Fink has already announced that he may make the measurements of his new speakers publicly available so that Pierre Aubert can add them to the spinorama.org database.

The new AsciLab speakers are measuring also extremely well with the Klippel system; they seem to have no coloration at all, but I am afraid, they have no wood veneer.

AsciLab speakers are about to launch

A6b passive version 96dB THD It's the best so far

www.audiosciencereview.com

I wrote some e-Mails to Elac, Magnat and Nubert, to ask them, if they would send the most interesting compact speakers to @amirm or Erin´s audiocorner, for Klippel measurements, but never received an answer by any of them!

A speaker, which I thought could be "End-game" was the Nubert NuVero 60
In case of nubert, some extremely interested audiosciencereview.com and Hififorum members put their money together to send it to @amirm for having the Nubert NuVero 60 tested.
the result is here:

Nubert NuVero 60 Speaker Review

This is a review, listening tests, EQ and detailed measurements of the Nubert NuVero 60 3-way stand-mount speaker. It was kindly sent by a member from Germany and costs €1,650 (US $1780) a pair. I had to take my diffuser out of the lightbox to fit the speaker in there so please pardon the...

www.audiosciencereview.com

So it is a very good speaker, but not overwhelmingly good. And no wooden veneer version aviable...... The spinorama.org result is here:

A collection of loudspeakers measurements

www.spinorama.org

I highly recommend to visit the youtube channel of virtualHifi, and use headphones or in-ear-monitors, to make an informed decision for your next speaker purchase!

or look here for even smaller speakers (!):

They also took a close look at the EPOS ES 14 N (it is avaiable in veneer but perhaps not as rounded as you would like it):

Last but not Least:

Why not sending a letter to Canton, that they may send the Reference 9 to @amirm If they would not be afraid of having it tested by @amirm you would be able to see how it performs. If you would do some equalisation as www.spinorama then, after testing, will suggest, I am sure they will perform very well, because the nice roundings says me, that the equalisation tuning will perform for the room-reflections in a nice way, close to the direct sound....

Great suggestions, among the options, I actually like the look of Sierra LX, physically make sense to me, just traditional soft dome and wooden built. I can understand why speakers are designed in modern glossy finish square box not only because of cost, also less and less master in cabinet craftmanship, perhaps a tough job for young generation nowadays and even factory machine? Yes I listened the video you posted, Spendor seem the smoothiest, but not sure it can sound a bit crispy/detailed when pairing with more aggresive gears. But then the Canton in walnut seem limited not an easy option to get here in Malaysia too I guess. Coming october the AV show I'll see if I can get an audition for Canton Reference 9.

 

[whislai]

If you're ok with solid hardwood and potential issues with that, there is the March Audio Sointuva AWG. It has some curved edges if that counts lol
You can also get them in MDF? with any paint colour, though you mentioned wood finish .
Non fatiguing white retaining details. You may potentially miss a more in your face spacious airy sound due to the somewhat narrower dispersion.
View attachment 387323

The philharmonic BMR monitor has extra wide dispersion with a little brighter presentation. A bit of a large size stand mount but then again so are mofi. Comes in curves and wood veneer
View attachment 387324

Ok lots of option, for the price I thought the March Audio Sointuva AWG seem not good enough in craftmanship, as for the above picture, I don't know, people are obssessed with glossy finish or what aha, I just shaking my head looking at it. Just need something like a piece of solid wood prefebly with curve, even the popular Wharfedale Linton I thought it could be better with the front baffle in wood instead of black surface (is that plastic by the way?) which I don't understand again why the design to begin with.

 

[totti1965]

If you're ok with solid hardwood and potential issues with that, there is the March Audio Sointuva AWG. It has some curved edges if that counts lol
You can also get them in MDF? with any paint colour, though you mentioned wood finish .
Non fatiguing white retaining details. You may potentially miss a more in your face spacious airy sound due to the somewhat narrower dispersion.
View attachment 387323

The philharmonic BMR monitor has extra wide dispersion with a little brighter presentation. A bit of a large size stand mount but then again so are mofi. Comes in curves and wood veneer
View attachment 387324

Yes, of course very very VERY good speakers, indeed. I just forgot to mention them. I am a bit kind of german biased here, perhaps. Perhaps worth to mention: there were some discussions about build quality of the march audio speakers in this forum, and the way, the CEO of march audio is handling problems.

 

[Penelinfi]

Sierra LX has AlMg dome
If you really want wood and curves, perhaps you can get a custom built cabinet to either fit a well measuring kit or else retrofit a more commercial design. Keep baffle size and driver placement the same .

 

[dogmamann]

Yes, of course very very VERY good speakers, indeed. I just forgot to mention them. I am a bit kind of german biased here, perhaps. Perhaps worth to mention: there were some discussions about build quality of the march audio speakers in this forum, and the way, the CEO of march audio is handling problems.

If you need service in Germany it wouldn’t get better than German brands like canton, elac, etc. canton is amazing with their service. Also to mention brands like canton, Quadral - they offer 10 year warranty on their top of the line products and service is very fast.(less than a week)

 

[steve59]

What am I missing? That German mag review looked like excellent loudspeaker measurements.

 

[617]

I agree that if you spend a certain amount on speakers, which are delicate machines with moving parts, you should be concerned with the longevity of the company and the incentives of their owners.

If you're German and looking to buy speakers to last you a long time, buying from Elac, Canton and other German brands is a no brainer. Genelec is Finnish but their long term support is first rate. I would not personally invest lots of money in many brands, definitely not Revel or B&W. Neumann I'm not sure about, but not a bad bet, they are owned by a Swiss company now that only makes audio and audiology equipment. KEF seems to have stable ownership and they have been consistently innovative. kii and d&d have seemed to carve out a niche and I think they will continue to offer good products for years to come.

The Ascend stuff does not look that great in my opinion, although the performance is amazing. Philharmonic is also great and I really like the guys who run it but I wouldn't be shocked if they ceased to be in a couple years.

ATC, PMC, Spendor and Harbeth I'd avoid. I bet some of the Von Schweikert stuff is good but it's quite expensive and that guy has always been into snake oil a bit.

Joachim Gerhard has a new brand, obviously a risk but he's an excellent designer and his new speakers look great.

 

[whislai]

I agree that if you spend a certain amount on speakers, which are delicate machines with moving parts, you should be concerned with the longevity of the company and the incentives of their owners.

If you're German and looking to buy speakers to last you a long time, buying from Elac, Canton and other German brands is a no brainer. Genelec is Finnish but their long term support is first rate. I would not personally invest lots of money in many brands, definitely not Revel or B&W. Neumann I'm not sure about, but not a bad bet, they are owned by a Swiss company now that only makes audio and audiology equipment. KEF seems to have stable ownership and they have been consistently innovative. kii and d&d have seemed to carve out a niche and I think they will continue to offer good products for years to come.

The Ascend stuff does not look that great in my opinion, although the performance is amazing. Philharmonic is also great and I really like the guys who run it but I wouldn't be shocked if they ceased to be in a couple years.

ATC, PMC, Spendor and Harbeth I'd avoid. I bet some of the Von Schweikert stuff is good but it's quite expensive and that guy has always been into snake oil a bit.

Joachim Gerhard has a new brand, obviously a risk but he's an excellent designer and his new speakers look great.

Ahe interesting opinions, as there's always a summary for each of these famous brands, I try to not get obssessed with any of the models they produced, but clearly there's always a model worth invest in, either by accident or because of nothing is certain nature of how the world works. And seriously I dont' really like any previous Canton models at all, but the new Reference 9 might be a go for me. I'm surprised you express negative points on the brands like ATC, PMC, Spendor, I'm indeed very keen and eyeing on the Spendor Classic 4/5, most probably can even do it in 2.1 home theater way, with the sub switch off ocassionally.