Cannot get my head around it

[Bliman]

I am searching a dac/preamp for my main system.
And It is proving to be difficult. The hardest problem I am having is that measurements are not meaningful anymore.
Above a certain threshold it doesn't matter anymore. And according to here, they then all sound exactly the same. So it doesn't matter if you buy a dac of 100€ or 20000€ if they are above some measurements they will all sound exactly the same. This is where I cannot get my head around it.
So if you put 3/4 of the dac's tested here next to each other. There will be no difference in sound.
I have heard a few products (mind you not voltage levelled and such) and they sounded all different. Like for example I have a Grace Design m902 that I use to listen music through a headphone from the computer. If I plug the headphone in the computer directly then the sound is much different then if I plug it in the Grace Design. I know that I don't need to voltage level it because I literally hear details that are not there if plugged in the computer.
I just cannot wrap my head that there is just no difference in sound in 3/4 of the dacs tested here. Is that 100% the case?
I always am someone that how better the measurements how better the sound. But if that is not the case then I can buy the RME DAC and be done with it if I don't need other features.
So you guys are all saying that above certain measurements that the sound is 100% identical no difference in speed, imaging, etc...
It is twisting my head so much.

 

[daftcombo]

I am searching a dac/preamp for my main system.
And It is proving to be difficult. The hardest problem I am having is that measurements are not meaningful anymore.
Above a certain threshold it doesn't matter anymore. And according to here, they then all sound exactly the same. So it doesn't matter if you buy a dac of 100€ or 20000€ if they are above some measurements they will all sound exactly the same. This is where I cannot get my head around it.
So if you put 3/4 of the dac's tested here next to each other. There will be no difference in sound.
I have heard a few products (mind you not voltage levelled and such) and they sounded all different. Like for example I have a Grace Design m902 that I use to listen music through a headphone from the computer. If I plug the headphone in the computer directly then the sound is much different then if I plug it in the Grace Design. I know that I don't need to voltage level it because I literally hear details that are not there if plugged in the computer.
I just cannot wrap my head that there is just no difference in sound in 3/4 of the dacs tested here. Is that 100% the case?
I always am someone that how better the measurements how better the sound. But if that is not the case then I can buy the RME DAC and be done with it if I don't need other features.
So you guys are all saying that above certain measurements that the sound is 100% identical no difference in speed, imaging, etc...
It is twisting my head so much.

Yes but here you just tested a transparent DAC+amp against a generic PC DAC+amp, it's like the easiest case where you could distinguish two units.

Yeah, why not get a RME ADI-2 DAC and be done forever? Who said Hi-Fi was a neverending quest, except sellers?

Or even better: stick with your nice Grace Design!

 

[Bliman]

Yes but here you just tested a transparent DAC+amp against a generic PC DAC+amp, it's like the easiest case where you could distinguish two units.

Yeah, why not get a RME ADI-2 DAC and be done forever? Who said Hi-Fi was a neverending quest, except sellers?

Or even better: stick with your nice Grace Design!

Yeah but I need a new one for my main system. But it seems like I have been indoctrinated by all these reviews in magazines or the internet or stores (some who has very deep knowledge and who design great products as well http://www.link-audio.be/ . I also cannot wrap my head around the fact that all these people would be lying.
I shall admit to something that is considered heresy here. Last time I was looking for headphones (which took a long time) and eventually Solderdude helped me with his website. And I chose the Beyerdynamic DT 250 250 Ohm. And it is a great headphone. Now I was hearing the differences of the headphones by the internet, but chose the Beyerdynamic because Solderdude gave it a glowing review by measurements. Now I couldn't resist and searched for the RME on yt and yes I found this.

.There are more. Now I hear differences again (but not nearly as much as with my computer vs Grace).
It seems like I am in a state of disbelieve that all these DACs sound 100% the same. Also, it is difficult because I need a preamp as well. And I hear that the RME has a great preamp. And that is a great plus. Then I hear that the Oktoresearch stereo dac or Matrix dac does this digital and that that is the best. Now my technical knowledge is very limited. And to be honest it gets me lost because I don't know if there is a difference in sound by these preamps (I don't know if these are really preamps in the sense of the word).
It is just hard to take the plunge in taking something with less good measurements then something with better measurements. It feels like I will be missing things.

 

[daftcombo]

Yeah but I need a new one for my main system. But it seems like I have been indoctrinated by all these reviews in magazines or the internet or stores (some who has very deep knowledge and who design great products as well http://www.link-audio.be/ . I also cannot wrap my head around the fact that all these people would be lying.
I shall admit to something that is considered heresy here. Last time I was looking for headphones (which took a long time) and eventually Solderdude helped me with his website. And I chose the Beyerdynamic DT 250 250 Ohm. And it is a great headphone. Now I was hearing the differences of the headphones by the internet, but chose the Beyerdynamic because Solderdude gave it a glowing review by measurements. Now I couldn't resist and searched for the RME on yt and yes I found this.

.There are more. Now I hear differences again (but not nearly as much as with my computer vs Grace).
It seems like I am in a state of disbelieve that all these DACs sound 100% the same. Also, it is difficult because I need a preamp as well. And I hear that the RME has a great preamp. And that is a great plus. Then I hear that the Oktoresearch stereo dac or Matrix dac does this digital and that that is the best. Now my technical knowledge is very limited. And to be honest it gets me lost because I don't know if there is a difference in sound by these preamps (I don't know if these are really preamps in the sense of the word).
It is just hard to take the plunge in taking something with less good measurements then something with better measurements. It feels like I will be missing things.

Youtube videos for audio gear is nonsense at its finest. Do you realize all go through your own DAC? So you could recreate all that with your own gear, no need to spend more.
Plus you don't know if they level-matched the devices, if they used the same configurations...

Try to find some distortion tests on Internet and you'll realize how hard it is to hear it under 0.1%

 

[Bliman]

Youtube videos for audio gear is nonsense at its finest. Do you realize all go through your own DAC? So you could recreate all that with your own gear, no need to spend more.
Plus you don't know if they level-matched the devices, if they used the same configurations...

Try to find some distortion tests on Internet and you'll realize how hard it is to hear it under 0.1%

Yeah I know it goes through my dac as well. But I don't know what difference it makes. If there is no difference then they would sound the same even it goes through my dac too. And yes I don't know if they are level matched.
Do you think that it doesn't matter in sound between RME and for example Oktoresearch for the preamp?
Also what is pretty frustrating is that yes the computer sounds different but for some music it sounds nice.
It sounds much more surround sound and a bit more emphasis in treble and much less clear if someone sings. It sounds less coherent but more spatial and more spectacular but more fatiguing. And that is better for some music. I think that this blends well in the PS Audio discussion here.
The PS audio doesn't measure well but maybe it sounds better with some music then the better measurements gear.
But the most difficult is getting your head around that if something measures better that it doesn't do one thing to the music anymore. I think it is a confidence thing in fear of missing something if I choose a lesser measurement gear like the RME. Certainly, if you begin reading reviews.

 

[Fluffy]

First of all, sound demos on youtube is the worst most inaccurate thing ever. Just look at what he used to record it: https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1253811-REG/zoom_h4npro_4_channel_handy_recorder.html

So, recording a multi-thousand dollars' worth of gear with a crappy 200$ recorder… this is pretty much a total fail. For this and for many other reasons, my advice is to completely ignore that video.

As for DACs – I subscribe to the opinion that once transparency is reached, they indeed all sound the same. So the best thing you can do is find the one that gives you the most value for money while being transparent enough and go for it. I also consider getting the RME ADI-2 DAC myself, but it's a bit of an overkill in terms of price and features, so I'm not sure it's the best value for money for me. If its price is not a concern for you, then nothing is really stopping you from getting it.

I also cannot wrap my head around the fact that all these people would be lying.

I don't think anybody is trying to be purposefully deceitful. Subjectivists that claim they hear clear difference between reference-level dacs are in my opinion mislead by their own biases, and can't separate the psychological effects from what they actually hear. That's why we have blind testing, to separate the real from the psychological. If you can't differentiate between two dacs with a blind test, that mean they sound the same, regardless of price and design method.

 

[majingotan]

Just go with whatever DAC you like to see aesthetically. They all sound sound almost the same unless that said DAC has tube stage Aqua La Scala MK2 or a transformer stage ahem PS Audio DirectStream which would add obscene amounts of distortion that you can finally hear the difference between those DACs

 

[pozz]

It's interesting right? We spend so much time on technical details and then conclude that you won't hear a difference. In some sense it's like admiring art, effort and applied knowledge in general.

One of my first threads on ASR was about the anxiety induced by the hifi industry—it's really necessary to learn at least some aspects of audio, particularly psychoacoustics, as a kind of profilactic. Steve Guttenberg's last video seems like it's acknowledging that trouble.

 

[Bliman]

First of all, sound demos on youtube is the worst most inaccurate thing ever. Just look at what he used to record it: https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1253811-REG/zoom_h4npro_4_channel_handy_recorder.html

So, recording a multi-thousand dollars' worth of gear with a crappy 200$ recorder… this is pretty much a total fail. For this and for many other reasons, my advice is to completely ignore that video.

As for DACs – I subscribe to the opinion that once transparency is reached, they indeed all sound the same. So the best thing you can do is find the one that gives you the most value for money while being transparent enough and go for it. I also consider getting the RME ADI-2 DAC myself, but it's a bit of an overkill in terms of price and features, so I'm not sure it's the best value for money for me. If its price is not a concern for you, then nothing is really stopping you from getting it.


I don't think anybody is trying to be purposefully deceitful. Subjectivists that claim they hear clear difference between reference-level dacs are in my opinion mislead by their own biases, and can't separate the psychological effects from what they actually hear. That's why we have blind testing, to separate the real from the psychological. If you can't differentiate between two dacs with a blind test, that mean they sound the same, regardless of price and design method.

I don't think it matters with what he recorded it with. Why should it matter? According to their measurements here, there should be no difference at all. If he recorded the same way. Why would it be different? I am not listening to how good they sound but if there is a difference in the sound at all. Unless it is recorded different each time.

 

[daftcombo]

Also what is pretty frustrating is that yes the computer sounds different but for some music it sounds nice.
It sounds much more surround sound and a bit more emphasis in treble and much less clear if someone sings. It sounds less coherent but more spatial and more spectacular but more fatiguing. And that is better for some music.

There is a lot of music sounding too harsh, for which the computer soundcard might sound better. I had the same experience of liking some tracks more with a Maya44USB than a Focusrite Scarlett 2i4 at first. Some music just sounds better on worse soundcards, softer, more mellow... That's why some audiophiles quest never ends. It's impossible to have a DAC that sounds better than others with every source material.

 

[daftcombo]

I don't think it matters with what he recorded it with. Why should it matter? According to their measurements here, there should be no difference at all. If he recorded the same way. Why would it be different? I am not listening to how good they sound but if there is a difference in the sound at all. Unless it is recorded different each time.

A slight difference in sound level can mean a lot for a capture soundcard and for what you finally hear.
Both DAC have many filters, did they use the same?

 

[Bliman]

Thanks for responding all. Yeah, it is super difficult to get your head around that if something measures better that it doesn't make a difference.
Now would this also apply to the preamp section? Like makes it a difference in sound between the RME DAC or OktoResearch or Matrix Dac. Or are they also the same? Because I would connect them to the lyngdorf sda 2175 power amplifier.

 

[Fluffy]

I don't think it matters with what he recorded it with. Why should it matter? According to their measurements here, there should be no difference at all. If he recorded the same way. Why would it be different? I am not listening to how good they sound but if there is a difference in the sound at all. Unless it is recorded different each time.

It's very simple – the same issues that crop up in playing devices, also exist in recording devices. Let's say you are trying to compare a dac with THD+N of -70 DB (terrible), and one with a THD+N of -110 DB (excellent). But if your recorder has THD+N of -50 DB, then any difference between the dacs will drown in the noise of the recorder itself, and you won't be able to hear or measure any difference. And I have personal experience with that specific recorder, and I can say that it has horrible SNR.

There is a lot of music sounding too harsh, for which the computer soundcard might sound better. I had the same experience of liking some tracks more with a Maya44USB than a Focusrite Scarlett 2i4 at first. Some music just sounds better on worse soundcards, softer, more mellow... That's why some audiophiles quest never ends. It's impossible to have a DAC that sounds better than others with every source material.

The solution for these issues is not to search for a component that happens to align with your preferable sound signature and maybe fit the kind of music you like. The simplest thing to do is get a transparent device, and use EQ to fix any harshness. Audio sellers profit from the endless purist pursuit of a device that "just works" without needing to resort to EQ. Most descriptions of harshness, mellowness, softness, etc can be attributed to lowering and boosting different frequency ranges. And once you have the option to "fix" the sound using a couple of EQ adjustments, you don't need more than one DAC for any source material conceivable.

 

[Bliman]

It's very simple – the same issues that crop up in playing devices, also exist in recording devices. Let's say you are trying to compare a dac with THD+N of -70 DB (terrible), and one with a THD+N of -110 DB (excellent). But if your recorder has THD+N of -50 DB, then any difference between the dacs will drown in the noise of the recorder itself, and you won't be able to hear or measure any difference. And I have personal experience with that specific recorder, and I can say that it has horrible SNR.


The solution for these issues is not to search for a component that happens to align with your preferable sound signature and maybe fit the kind of music you like. The simplest thing to do is get a transparent device, and use EQ to fix any harshness. Audio sellers profit from the endless purist pursuit of a device that "just works" without needing to resort to EQ. Most descriptions of harshness, mellowness, softness, etc can be attributed to lowering and boosting different frequency ranges. And once you have the option to "fix" the sound using a couple of EQ adjustments, you don't need more than one DAC for any source material conceivable.

But you say the opposite. I hear subtle differences. If the recorder would be worse then the dacs they will still be treated the same way. And both get to the limit of the recorder. Not that it matters if these Dacs sound the same. Either the recorder would be more superior then the dacs and any differences that you hear would that be of the dac or if the recorder is much worse then the dacs and then the recorder is the limiter then the sound is limited by the recorder and they would still sound the same. Then the only difference is if these are level matched.
Thank you for the other tips.

 

[Bliman]

Someone knows the answer for the preamp sections?

 

[LeftCoastTim]

if they are above some measurements they will all sound exactly the same.

This is correct.

So if you put 3/4 of the dac's tested here next to each other. There will be no difference in sound.

It's more than 3/4. Anything with SINAD above 80dB is almost certainly not audibly different.

I always am someone that how better the measurements how better the sound
...
It is twisting my head so much.

Compared to human vision, our auditory system is relatively poor. Ever since consumers got 16bit/44KHz, with the >80dB SINAD signal chain, there is nothing else to differentiate all these products (DAC, AMP). So what happened is manufacturers pushed subjective impressions over instrumented tests or blind ABX. And here we are buying LP's, Tube amps, HiRes for "better" sound.

If people wrote lovingly about analog quality of VHS, or Trinitron Tube TVs, or TVs that can emit infrared and ultraviolet rays, and charged more money for them, they would be laughed out of the market place. But LP's got pretty close to theoretical limit of perception, and CD's exceeded it, so here we are.

"Audiophilia" is mostly art appreciation these days.

 

[Bliman]

This is correct.



It's more than 3/4. Anything with SINAD above 80dB is almost certainly not audibly different.



Compared to human vision, our auditory system is relatively poor. Ever since consumers got 16bit/44KHz, with the >80dB SINAD signal chain, there is nothing else to differentiate all these products (DAC, AMP). So what happened is manufacturers pushed subjective impressions over instrumented tests or blind ABX. And here we are buying LP's, Tube amps, HiRes for "better" sound.

If people wrote lovingly about analog quality of VHS, or Trinitron Tube TVs, or TVs that can emit infrared and ultraviolet rays, and charged more money for them, they would be laughed out of the market place. But LP's got pretty close to theoretical limit of perception, and CD's exceeded it, so here we are.

"Audiophilia" is mostly art appreciation these days.

It's kind of sad that we are there yet. In the next thousands of years, it doesn't matter what we make it will make no difference to the sound. That is a sad thought and stunning all the same.

 

[Guermantes]

@Bliman , I think the most variable factor is the headphone amplifier in the products you're considering. That's where you will notice differences. Much will depend on how the amp copes with the varying impedance load the headphones present.

Is the new DAC primarily for headphone listening?

 

[BDWoody]

It's kind of sad that we are there yet. In the next thousands of years, it doesn't matter what we make it will make no difference to the sound. That is a sad thought and stunning all the same.

The difference in sound will come from the 'motors'... The speakers and the room...which together make the most important part of your system. (Unless your are a headphone only guy)

I know exactly where you are coming from... Very hard to make sense of all these claims. I would just suggest that you keep reading more, and clarity will come, as you come to terms with the state of this crazy market...

You aren't missing anything...it really isn't as complicated or mystical as many would have you believe.

 

[Bliman]

@Bliman , I think the most variable factor is the headphone amplifier in the products you're considering. That's where you will notice differences. Much will depend on how the amp copes with the varying impedance load the headphones present.

Is the new DAC primarily for headphone listening?

Hey thanks for responding. No I will not do any headphone listening with it. I use my grace design downstairs connected to the computer to listen with my headphone.
I would use it upstairs in combination with a lyngdorf sda 2175 power amplifier http://www.stereomojo.com/LyngdorfSDA2175AmplfierReview.htm . Dynaudio 52 SE speakers https://www.dynaudio.com/discontinued-models/audience/audience-52-se#tech-specs Q acousic subwoofer https://www.qacoustics.co.uk/q-acoustics-3070s-active-subwoofer.html and Nad c542i cd player http://www.hifi-review.com/150456-nad-c542.html (who is slowly at the end of it's life) and hopefully I can stream Tidal in the future.