Can you trust a subwoofer by ear?

[FireEmblem]

The ONLY type of microphone you should use for audio measurements is an omnidirectional condenser microphone. As for that specific microphone, I assume you are talking about this. Does it say it's omnidirectional? Where is the polar plot? And why would you buy that when you could get an ECM8000 or EMM-6 that dozens of people on ASR use for the same price? If you can't afford to get it calibrated, well there are people (like Amir) who think you don't need a calibrated mic. I don't agree with him, and I stated my reasons why in that book. The evidence is there for you to examine, along with links to the source. You can look at the evidence for yourself and decide if you want to go calibrated or not. I am a purist and I have a particular insistence on doing things properly, so for me, it's calibrated mic.

Yes it said omnidirectional. I couldn't find a polar plot for it.

I thought I should avoid the ECM8000 if I can't callibrate it.. it showed that there are difference of +5dB so there's no point in let's say lowering a specific frequency by 5dB while it's just me fighting against the measurement microphone, no? That defeats the idea of applying a correction EQ a bit.. Unless you say the differences are neglecteble and the overall correction is still worth it. What do you think on this?

@SIY has a review of the IK Multimedia ARC microphone.

That's from 2018, I believe the newer models of the microphone have been improved... or maybe it was just the Arc software. But for this one in particular, it says

"The IK Multimedia MEMS mic works beautifully with its ARC 2.5 system, but the technology still has not quite reached the point where it can be used for general measurement because of the bass rolloff and relatively high distortion. The rear response at the top octave is impressive, though, as is the midrange flatness on axis."

 

[FireEmblem]

I'm thinking about something right now.. room correction for the entire room is of course much more complex, but in the frequency range below 100Hz, there's usually one, maybe two boost at max, isn't it?

Shouldn't it then be possible to get rid off room modes by applying an EQ by ear? As you may or may not remember, my main issue is that I wanted to use a 7" monitor in my room, but that one creates modes, while I was able to control the T10s subwoofer pretty decent through its volume knob.

But let's assume that either of these two setups is left with a mode. Couldn't I just use an EQ, search for the frequency that's causing the mode and then apply a soft cut of a few db in that region, walk around in the room and see if that gets rid off it?

While the total room graph looks more complex and is difficult to diagnose by ear, room modes are pretty obvious and only in a very short and limited range of the spectrum. I believe this could be a functioning method to get 7" monitors working.

Especially because I know that the 5" which go down to 49Hz don't do that, but the 7" which go down to 39Hz do. So it's either only in that 10Hz region, or maybe a bit more upwards due to the bigger drivers, but generally should only occur below 100Hz.

What do you think of that?

(As a short term fix to get the monitors going specifically in the low end, of course I'd like to properly measure and EQ the room later).

 

[dualazmak]

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You can look at the evidence for yourself and decide if you want to go calibrated or not. I am a purist and I have a particular insistence on doing things properly, so for me, it's calibrated mic.

Yes, I too am in the same league (ref. #831 on my project thread).

 

[Chrispy]

Interesting the concept of "trusting" a sub I much prefer more tools than just using a low pass filter by ear to "blend" with some particular music/source....

 

[FireEmblem]

Interesting the concept of "trusting" a sub I much prefer more tools than just using a low pass filter by ear to "blend" with some particular music/source....

Not a low pass filter. Let's take Pauls room measurement for example:

If I would do this by ear, I would create a bell in the EQ that goes down by -5dB, would look like this (let's assume 75 SPL is midline, just for reference)

Then I'd walk through the room and see if the mode disappears. If it does, you could technically first narrow the Q (making the cut shorter horizontally),
step by step, until you're really 1% on the edge of before the room mode comes back. Then you could do the same with volume, looking how little you can go (-9dB, -8dB, -7dB[...]) until the mode appears again.

This way it should theoretically be possible to pinpoint the exact frequency of the mode and dial it down for only the amount required without overcompensation.

It's a bit more fiddly than with just measuring and seeing things, but should be doable by ear. And since it's only about taming one big mode below 100Hz, it's not too complex to mess something up.

Even easier of course if the mode occurs in your listening position, since you don't need to walk around.. but I don't have one where I sit.

 

[Flaesh]

Interesting the concept of "trusting" a sub

Yeah.
As a mic-less test, one can listen to a MATT Test or run similar signals from the REV generator. One can also listen to the same signal through headphones for comparison.
One can also listen to the Kick Drum Test to understand the significance of the lower limit.
IMO it's easier and faster to use a microphone and make it as decent as possible, and then listen.

 

[FireEmblem]

Small update for everyone interested: I've got my Adam T5V now, funnily they have more low-end than I remember and some tracks can really create pretty loud modes in my room. So I tried to listen to it from the other room of my apartment, the mode wasn't really audible, just the overall low end. Tried in the in front of my apartmen in the stairway, nothing. Then I asked the neighbour who's living below me if I can check it in his apartment, I stood exactly at the spot where the mode is in my room (our apartments are shaped exactly the same), we turned down any music/noise in his room and closed the window:

Nothing, and I mean really nothing. Not even the slightest rumble.

So I think it's save to say that modes don't leave the room and are really just a local phenomenom. Because I double tested this with my 2.1 system and sub (not in his apartment but in front of my apartment's door from the stairway) and the low end was much more audible, because it was "real energy", not just the leftovers of reflections building up inside the apartment.

Also cool: The Adam T5V go a bit lower than Adam Audio is stating, they say 45Hz but even 40Hz in the sinus wave generator is really audible.

Not so cool: I believe the Adam T5V create more mode-energy in my listening position, which the TV7 didn't! Maybe the waves that came from the TV7 created modes more advantageous for me, further away. However, it's easy to tell apart what's actually from the speakers and what is the rumbling from the room in the back, since it's only subtle in the background.

Now I'm thinking about whether or not the T7V would be a better fit if I want to go subwoofer-less.. I will add the subwoofer (T10s) now and see if I can get a more controlled lowend by dialing down the sub than with the T5V alone and report back.

Edit: Also put my hand onto the walls/corners/ceiling around the mode, and also the top of my bookshelf to see if the mode creates physical vibration: Wasn't able to feel anything.

Edit2: Also checked my parfume bottle which is transparent and sits in the shelf right where the mode is, the fluid isn't moving in the slightest.

 

[FireEmblem]

Okay, tried the T10s now with different wall-distances, phase switch, crossover at 60/120 etc.. I'm not happy.

First of all, I find it rather unmusical. It's not a very transparent/crisp lowend, but rather just a muddy rumble. This could be of course due to my room and missing treatment, but my 2.1 consumer sub sounds much more precise and crisp. And I remember someone else reviewing the T10s as just this: unmusical and "boring". I think it was even here in the forum.

I find the lowend added by the subwoofer rather distracting and annoying, it doesn't blend well. Somehow it felt different with the other unit I had a couple of weeks ago, but maybe because I had more standalone tests/time with the Adam T5V and even the T7V with more lowend right out of the box, I'm feeling things now different.

For modes, dialing down the sub doesn't really help, they still ocur.

At 30Hz (sinewave test) I can not hear anything anymore, no matter where I stand in the room. With headphones I can easily hear all the way down to 10Hz. I assume this is because I have to real dial down the T10s for not creating gigantic modes at my listening position when listening to music.

So since 30Hz need much more dB to be audible, I think a subwoofer in an untreated room, even though many people here claimed "better some low end than no low end at all", is just a waste of money.

Effectively, it just adds 5Hz more than the Adam T5V alone, which is 35Hz instead of 40Hz. That's of course not worth 400€ (or 339€, the sale price). Also, the low end will just be converted into unmusical rumbling, I liked it much more when it just came out of the T5V alone, even though it didn't sound as "fat".

And although the common saying is that subwoofers would take some efforts from the speakers so that they can work better in the mids and highs, I don't find this to be true either. The T5V sound much more crisp and clear standalone. I think that's because the crossover begins at 60Hz minimum, which takes away 20Hz the Adam Audio otherwise would've played back more precisely and merged with everything else.

For lowend, I feel headphones sound a thousand times better. It's much more musical and blends better with the overall music, and of course much easier to be displayed because you don't have the room to worry about.

For me, this closes the chapter on subwoofer for now. I might think of adding one one day, but only when I can afford to build a proper studio room with very excellent low end absorbers, measurements and callibration. For casual mixing "fun", if one thinks lowend sounds a bit thin, I think a 2.1 consumer sub will sound much more musical and fun. And for precise decision I'd just dive into the headphones then.

The last thing I need to do is now to deceide whether or not I want to use T5V or T7V standalone, knowing now, that room modes do not leave the room and shouldn't annoy the neighbours.

T5V alone sound excellent, T7V had a slightly more enjoyable lowend, but took away much more space. Or maybe, I'll just ditch the studio monitors over all and keep doing mixing decision in headphones for best precision and use my 2.1 system for fun when in the composing stage.

Might do the blind tests I mentioned earlier, mixing the same track with different systems and combinations to see if Logitech 2.1 + Superlux HD681 could contest with T5V + Sennheiser HD 650. I'd be surprised if the difference is significant. If I could mix faster however on the more expensive studio gear is another question. That's something to test..

Edit: I wonder how many people use a big sub in their room believing it's adding so much lowend for them, while they have to dial it down to the point where it does nothing at 30Hz anymore. Because my room isn't small, it's medium sized, and I can tell from the tests that you'd need very large and many absorbers to get the room controlled up to the point where you can add so much dB that 30Hz is even really on eyesight with everything else. Folks should really do a sinus wave generator test and check their setup.

 

[olds1959special]

I just got a second subwoofer for my living room setup to use in stereo. I’m not using a crossover so it’s “double-bass”. My main speakers do lack a little in the very lowest frequencies so they complement each other. But before I measured with an RTA I had set the levels of the subs way too high and it didn’t sound right. Part of the reason is because my subs seem to be super powerful and the gain knob is very sensitive (connected through balanced XLR’s). It’s *barely* turned up at all right now and yet can put out some serious power and make furniture rattle. They are KRK S10 V2’s. Since they are turned down to the right level now I have the LPF turned up to 80Hz so I can get the most bass without it muddying up the mains.

 

[FireEmblem]

I just got a second subwoofer for my living room setup to use in stereo. I’m not using a crossover so it’s “double-bass”. My main speakers do lack a little in the very lowest frequencies so they complement each other. But before I measured with an RTA I had set the levels of the subs way too high and it didn’t sound right. Part of the reason is because my subs seem to be super powerful and the gain knob is very sensitive (connected through balanced XLR’s). It’s *barely* turned up at all right now and yet can put out some serious power and make furniture rattle. They are KRK S10 V2’s. Since they are turned down to the right level now I have the LPF turned up to 80Hz so I can get the most bass without it muddying up the mains.

Try this with it at 30Hz, 25Hz.. https://onlinetonegenerator.com/
and see if you can still hear something. With my test I had the same problem, that I had to dial it all the way down, so that I wouldn't hear anything at 30Hz anymore.

 

[olds1959special]

Try this with it at 30Hz, 25Hz.. https://onlinetonegenerator.com/
and see if you can still hear something. With my test I had the same problem, that I had to dial it all the way down, so that I wouldn't hear anything at 30Hz anymore.

What’s the frequency range of your sub?

 

[FireEmblem]

What’s the frequency range of your sub?

The T10s I tested this with goes down to 28Hz.