Can you make a small room sound decent?

[krabapple]

He says he's happy with his bass sound. The problem is not that. If he's got annoying slap echo that's a much more important issue.

 

[DJBonoBobo]

I don't want to discount people's advice, but the same thing is happening here last time I asked for help. Half the people dont read the thread and just chime in with general stuff. To make my goals clear, my low end is fine as shown in my measurement. My issue is with everything else, lots of echo in voice range and flutter.

I have to have a desk, and having it there barely sounds any different than removing it.

I'm going to record myself clapping in the room so you guys get an idea of how bad it is. I'm looking for some advice on tackling that but only one user has tackled that and everyone else is on fixing bass. I mean I have people suggesting I buy a measurement mic after I posted a measurement? I don't want to get frustrated but I swear it feels like half the users aren't reading and just want to pop in and give their entire treatment methodology for their space and not read th ththrea

You could have easily prevented this if you had put more effort into formulating your question accurately and if you showed the relevant measurements from the beginning. The very first answer points you to this. But even after 4 pages, you've only posted the one measurement that shows what you're happy with.

 

[Astrozombie]

Well the general rule I heard is 20% Diffusion and 15% absorption for a room.

 

[sonitus mirus]

He says he's happy with his bass sound. The problem is not that. If he's got annoying slap echo that's a much more important issue.

My bad, I’m data driven and was lured by the room measurement that only showed bass frequencies. For me, function ruled over form and I went to town with a giant pile of foam panels and a case of adhesive spray cans. When I clap or loudly say "echo", it now seems eerily dead in the room. With all that room treatment in the OP’s photo, I’m wondering if the issue might be some amount of loudness recruitment condition that might require a visit to audiologist?

 

[hex168]

Is that accurate? Regardless of front wall position the speakers are still the same distance from the ceiling and side walls.

Yes, that is generally accurate. Placing the speakers further from the front wall means that they are closer to you. To a first approximation, that increases direct sound compared to reflected sound.

 

[mightycicadalord]

Yes, that is generally accurate. Placing the speakers further from the front wall means that they are closer to you. To a first approximation, that increases direct sound compared to reflected sound.

Maybe I'm not following but you said moving them from the front wall increases reflect energy from the other boundaries.

My bad, I’m data driven and was lured by the room measurement that only showed bass frequencies. For me, function ruled over form and I went to town with a giant pile of foam panels and a case of adhesive spray cans. When I clap or loudly say "echo", it now seems eerily dead in the room. With all that room treatment in the OP’s photo, I’m wondering if the issue might be some amount of loudness recruitment condition that might require a visit to audiologist?

Really, audiologist because my room echoes too much? Seems like a silly suggestion. Besides I've gone recently and had my hearing is great.

 

[FeddyLost]

My issue is with everything else, lots of echo in voice range and

If this issue is still actual, i'd also check material and construction of walls before treatment.
Thin and wobbly plasterboard eats excessive bass, but vibrates and reflects mids in extremely annoying manner. Covering it with some absorbers at 1st reflection points only don't help much because whole wall is a secondary radiating surface.
If you have inner room shell of plasterboard that strongly resonates after hitting it with knuckle, i'd measure distortion at listening place and maybe investigate walls with stethoscope while playing high distortion frequencies.

I've had to partially remake plasterboard parts of inner shell after measurements, so it's not a joke. It's still not dead enough and it can be seen on spectrogram, but i've decided to leave it as it is, in "decent" condition. Much better will require full rebuild and/or masonry instead...

 

[sonitus mirus]

Maybe I'm not following but you said moving them from the front wall increases reflect energy from the other boundaries.


Really, audiologist because my room echoes too much? Seems like a silly suggestion. Besides I've gone recently and had my hearing is great.

Great, your hearing is fine. It was just an idea as some people can have overly sensitive hearing at specific frequency levels that can be outright painful to just a slight annoyance.

Maybe try playing some music where it sounds bad and see if you can find a position anywhere else in the room where it might not be as severe. If you find a spot, take a measurement at that position and compare it to your normal seating position. Perhaps that will provide a frequency range that you might be able to EQ to lower the severity, if you are unable to easily move your listening position. The same could be done with speaker positioning, including drastic direction changes with toe out/in.

I still say you might want to look at that null in the lower frequency, as perhaps this is causing you to compensate in overall volume level to make the music sound correct to you. But only if you notice the echo effect diminishing significantly when the volume is lowered a bit.

 

[hex168]

Yes, that is generally accurate. Placing the speakers further from the front wall means that they are closer to you. To a first approximation, that increases direct sound compared to reflected sound.

I read Kongwee's original post (#39) as saying that speakers against the front wall to reduce SBIR causes more reflections.

 

[mightycicadalord]

Room clap. So much flutter. Never had a room behave like this with the level of treatment I have in there.

room clap

Listen to a track uploaded by joshmelo.

whyp.it

 

[Doodski]

Room clap. So much flutter. Never had a room behave like this with the level of treatment I have in there.

room clap

Listen to a track uploaded by joshmelo.

whyp.it

I can hear it. Sounds like you are in a box with hard walls and floors. You need serious damping panels.

 

[krabapple]

If this issue is still actual, i'd also check material and construction of walls before treatment.
Thin and wobbly plasterboard eats excessive bass, but vibrates and reflects mids in extremely annoying manner. Covering it with some absorbers at 1st reflection points only don't help much because whole wall is a secondary radiating surface.
If you have inner room shell of plasterboard that strongly resonates after hitting it with knuckle, i'd measure distortion at listening place and maybe investigate walls with stethoscope while playing high distortion frequencies.

I've had to partially remake plasterboard parts of inner shell after measurements, so it's not a joke. It's still not dead enough and it can be seen on spectrogram, but i've decided to leave it as it is, in "decent" condition. Much better will require full rebuild and/or masonry instead...

Holy cow, this is so overkill.

Flutter echo comes from two hard parallel surfaces reflecting sound. You treat it by applying absorption or diffusion to the surfaces.

 

[krabapple]

Room clap. So much flutter. Never had a room behave like this with the level of treatment I have in there.

room clap

Listen to a track uploaded by joshmelo.

whyp.it

I'm not exactly sure just where you placed your 2'x4' panels (and better they should be 4" thick, not 2") except that they are 'left and right', or what they're made of. You also have a 4" thick ceiling panel, but placed where in relation to your LP?.

Perhaps you still have strong flutter echo between front and back walls. The only way to know is to experiment with placing absorption/diffusion and noting the effect at your listening position.

Where are you recording your clap audio from? Your listening seat?

 

[FeddyLost]

Holy cow, this is so overkill

Sounds like having walls singing along with speakers is not overkill.
For sure, general treatment of flutter echo is required.
But in case of hard, heavy and inert walls usually people worry about unbearable booming LF, not just flutter echo.
So, I think it's worth checking wall construction.

 

[krabapple]

but AGAIN, he is happy with the way his bass sounds. His problem is flutter echo.

 

[sonitus mirus]

I was fortunate enough to have a high, sloping ceiling and carpeting on the floors, so I was able to significantly reduce flutter echo with tons of absorption panels places along the walls on all sides. I also have some furniture that by luck is probably interfering with any echoes that might annoy me at my listening position.

From the photo provided of the room, I'd invest in some diffusion panels. The more the merrier, as you can't really ever have too many. Maybe some variable slat diffuser would be the best option?

 

[dasdoing]

one thing about the clap test:
clap needs to be at speaker position and mic at LP (or you need someone to clap at speaker while sitting at LP). should be obvious, but many will listen and clap at LP.

 

[sonitus mirus]

one thing about the clap test:
clap needs to be at speaker position and mic at LP (or you need someone to clap at speaker while sitting at LP). should be obvious, but many will listen and clap at LP.

Flutter echo is a general room issue and it doesn’t matter too much where you test clap in a small room. Those frequencies scatter all about in all directions, and I don’t think a mic would be necessary to identify an issue.

 

[dasdoing]

Flutter echo is a general room issue and it doesn’t matter too much where you test clap in a small room. Those frequencies scatter all about in all directions, and I don’t think a mic would be necessary to identify an issue.

you might be kind of right in an untreated room, but in a Dead End / Live End setup generated reflections change depending on where they emerge

 

[Abe_W]

Is it possible to make small rooms sound anywhere near decent? I've been trying to get good results in some of my rooms but no dice.

I've got an 11'x14' and a 12'x13' rooms and man, I cannot get anything good out of either of them. I've got a good chunk of treatment I can utilize but it never seems to be enough. The 12x13 room is really lively so I scratched that. The 11x14 sounds a little better so I went with that. Ceilings are 8ft.

My treatments are as follows.

2'x4' 10" deep triangle bass traps in the corners covering the middle of the corner mostly, not going from floor to ceiling. I may build two more and stack them.

4'x4' 4" thick ceiling panel above my head

2'x4' 2" thick panels on the left and right, there is room to double up on the thickness with these and I just might do that.

I have more materials sitting in the garage and can order more if need be. Just wondering how much you need before a room starts to get better. I think my left and right needs to just be a a big 4'x4' x 4" on each side because there are nasty phasy things going on when you move left to right. Should I just abandon this small space?

Small rooms always sound like sht. Fortunately, there are good headphones, headphone amps/DACs, etc for guys like you.