Can you hear a difference? 250hz and 1250hz playing at same time, but 1250 Hz is at 60db down. Vs pure 250hz tone.

[solderdude]

1: There will be tons of IMD in reality at a much higher level (see multitone ACA)
2: There will be music masking it.
3: There are no continuous tones one can easily detect there are short transients.
4: You cannot easily simulate the ACA.
5: You are chasing windmills (and in the NL we have a LOT of those)
6: Your hypothetical things are so far from reality there is no point.
7: When YOU want to know just create the test signals and listen.

 

[Pdxwayne]

1: There will be tons of IMD in reality at a much higher level (see multitone ACA)
2: There will be music masking it.
3: There are no continuous tones one can easily detect there are short transients.
4: You cannot easily simulate the ACA.
5: You are chasing windmills (and in the NL we have a LOT of those)
6: Your hypothetical things are so far from reality there is no point.
7: When YOU want to know just create the test signals and listen.

Since you don't mind saying "in theory, everyone can hear -60".....

Would you please entertain the idea that, "in theory, in certain electronics song, there is such two tones only section"?

Would you check if my 5 watts cold amp calculation is correct or not?

Thanks!

 

[Jimbob54]

Since you don't mind saying "in theory, everyone can hear -60".....

Would you please entertain the idea that, "in theory, in certain electronics song, there is such two tones only section"?

Would you check if my 5 watts cold amp calculation is correct or not?

Thanks!

You are leaving Pedantic in your rear view mirror now, next stop Petulant.

 

[Pdxwayne]

You are leaving Pedantic in your rear view mirror now, next stop Petulant.

Haha.

 

[solderdude]

Would you check if my 5 watts cold amp calculation is correct or not?

It's irrelevant.

There is no music consisting of 2 continuous pure tones as you describe and also no one that would enjoy listening to this.
At least, I listened to your 250Hz tone for quite a while and would NEVER do that when I expect to listen to music nor would I care if I heard a very tiny tonal difference. That doesn't make that single frequency more enjoyable.

 

[pma]

@Pdxwayne , your excurse and pushing the theme makes no sense.

 

[Pdxwayne]

It's irrelevant.

There is no music consisting of 2 continuous pure tones as you describe and also no one that would enjoy listening to this.
At leas, I listened to your 250Hz tone for quite a while and would NEVER do that when I expect to listen to music nor would I care if I heard a very tiny tonal difference. That doesn't make it more enjoyable.

Are we now moving on to describing personal subjective preference?

Aren't we supposed to talk about audibility of high thd products?

Anyway, at the end there are still other issues like you mentioned, like IMD, etc. Thus really hard to know which issue is responsible for audible difference, even if we could blind tests with real hardwares and music.

 

[Pdxwayne]

@Pdxwayne , your excurse and pushing the theme makes no sense.

You know what, I was ready to call it quits, but then was pulled back by solderdude....
; )

Anyway, what would make sense to you?

Would it make more sense if I do this instead?
Still using 2 tones, but this time is 250hz at 0db, 750hz at -40db.

*Simulate putting that file through transparent chain.

*Stimulate putting the file through a chain of commercially available preamp and amp, but not that transparent.

*ABX the two files?

 

[solderdude]

You know what, I was ready to call it quits, but then was pulled back by solderdude....

So now it is my fault ... again ...

Are we now moving on to describing personal subjective preference?

No, what gave you that idea ?
The fact that you ask such a question tells me you still don't get any of what has been said in this and the other thread.

Anyway, what would make sense to you?

None of what you suggested makes any sense.


What is your goal ?

To find out how masking works ?
To validate research already done ?
To find out what single harmonic makes a single steady state frequency objectionable... and at what arbitrary levels you can come up with ?
To create tests that have no connection to real world issues ?
To find out if you should build the ACA and predict how it will sound ?
To bother people taking 'tests' for your amusement and enligthenment (the latter doesn't seem to be happening) ?
To have others do the work for you because you don't understand the underlying theories and above all practice ?

Perhaps use your time for other things ?

 

[Blumlein 88]

So now it is my fault ... again ...


None of what you suggested makes any sense.


What is your goal ?

To find out how masking works ?
To validate research already done ?
To create tests that have no connection to real world issues ?
To find out if you should build the ACA and predict how it will sound ?
To bother people taking 'tests' for your amusement and enligthenment ?
To have others do the work for you because you don't understand the underlying theories and above all practice ?

Perhaps use your time for other things ?

This times 1000.

 

[Pdxwayne]

So now it is my fault ... again ...


No, what gave you that idea ?
The fact that you ask such a question tells me you still don't get any of what has been said in this and the other thread.



None of what you suggested makes any sense.


What is your goal ?

To find out how masking works ?
To validate research already done ?
To create tests that have no connection to real world issues ?
To find out if you should build the ACA and predict how it will sound ?
To bother people taking 'tests' for your amusement and enligthenment ?
To have others do the work for you because you don't understand the underlying theories and above all practice ?

Perhaps use your time for other things ?

See, you pulled me back again.
: P

I thought the main issue was you claimed there is no way thd in the bass can cause audible issue in the highs.

 

[Blumlein 88]

See, you pulled me back again.
: P

I thought the main issue was you claimed there is no way thd in the bass can cause audible issue in the highs.

Just to be pedantic myself. 250 hz isn't bass and 1250 hz isn't highs.

 

[solderdude]

I thought the main issue was you claimed there is no way thd in the bass can cause audible issue in the highs.

And your 'tests' didn't prove any of this.
You need to have >100th harmonic of a 30Hz tone to reach the treble range and have more than enough amplitude there.
The 5th harmonic of 30Hz is 150Hz.

So again... the ONLY way this can happen is when the amp is clipping or broken and I have mentioned this repeatedly.

With music many more tones + harmonics at much higher levels will be present (masking many small amplitude frequencies) and these are transients not steady state. On top of that due to high level of THD there will also be IM products (see multitone ACA) that could be much louder than the actual signal and as these are not part of the music but would be comprised as some weird modulated noise floor would be much much higher than the 100th harmonic which will be far below any audible levels.

I hope you learned something. That's why I have invested quite a few hours in posting replies and even doing your 'test'.
And if you didn't learn much I hope some other readers may have learned something.

The most important things you can take away from this are:

Distortion isn't only harmonic. With harmonic also comes IM as soon as more than 1 frequency is applied and needs to be high enough in level.

Constant single or dual tones can be used to detect audibility thresholds for humans (which also will differ) in controlled circumstances.
These levels differ a LOT from what you can detect using music.

Some recordings may be more suited than others for detecting distortion so is recording and level dependent and gear dependent.

Distortion character of an amp changes with amplitude so to emulate that exactly you it would be complicated.

Listening SPL and transducers (+ room) matters.

Masking is a complex thing and really exists. If it didn't and wasn't known how that works lossy codecs would be able to sound indistinguishable for the majority of people.

You still haven't proven to be a special snowflake that can detect 'deeper' than other members.

When you quote someone make sure you also include the context.

Try to get a better understanding from what is said.

Dive deeper in matter than just finding a wiki or anecdotal evidence.

Try to get a deeper grasp of all shown measurements, what they can tell you and what not and what the test conditions were.

 

[Hayabusa]

I was able to hear a difference using AKG 371, but not easy at all. Got abx results of 8/8. Then one member said "everyone" can hear a difference. I asked the member to give abx result but I got none. The other member chimed in to support the first member and basically said science already supports that claim. I asked for abx from the second member and again was ignored.
[Update 3:. Both members responded. First member can hear a difference and can pass abx. Second member so far can't hear a difference.]

Would you please take a listen to the two files and tell me if you think "everyone" can hear a difference? Or, you think most people can't hear a difference?

You can just download and quickly listen and tell me your impressions. Of cause, it would be great if you can provide your abx results. Thanks!

Files are here:

250hz_h2_to_h4_120_h5_60.wav and 1 more file

2 files sent via WeTransfer, the simplest way to send your files around the world

we.tl

Update:
I found out that using my speakers setup is very easy to tell a difference. The issue seems related to AKG 371.

Update 2:
Add what I have tried so far:
*AKG with Topping E30 and L30 - not obvious. Need to concentrate hard to get 8/8 abx.
*AKG with Samsung Note 9 phone - not obvious. Did not do ABX.
*$50 cheap headphones with Topping E30 and L30 - not obvious. Did not do abx.
*~$150 Andrew Jones designed Pioneer speakers with Topping chain, minidsp 2x4, and Parasound A23 amp - not obvious at all. Did not do abx.
*Laptop speakers - not obvious at all.
*Living room setup with Paradigm Persona B speakers - obvious. Can easily tell files apart. Did not do abx as family members are around. Quickly tried -70db down at 1250hz and can still sense a difference easier than when using AKG 371 to abx -60db down.

Update 4:
*AKG with Gustard X16 and H16, H16 at volume level 35, able to pass abx. 8/8. 1250hz barely noticeable, but good enough to pass abx.

I could only hear the extra tone when playing moderate SPL levels on my DT990 pro.
Below 50dB SPL and above 70dB SPl I could not hear it any more.

 

[Pdxwayne]

Just to be pedantic myself. 250 hz isn't bass and 1250 hz isn't highs.

I see.

I searched online and I see that at least 1 site is including 250 as part of bass (50 to 250).
: )

I guess high we can argue about the definition. The same site I visited didn't even use the term high at all.

For me, higher freq is anything that can sound sharper than bass. So, even at 750hz, third harmonic of 250hz, I am already thinking that it is high......

 

[Pdxwayne]

And your 'tests' didn't prove any of this.
You need to have >100th harmonic of a 30Hz tone to reach the treble range and have more than enough amplitude there.
The 5th harmonic of 30Hz is 150Hz.

So again... the ONLY way this can happen is when the amp is clipping or broken and I have mentioned this repeatedly.

With music many more tones + harmonics at much higher levels will be present (masking many small amplitude frequencies) and these are transients not steady state. On top of that due to high level of THD there will also be IM products (see multitone ACA) that could be much louder than the actual signal and as these are not part of the music but would be comprised as some weird modulated noise floor would be much much higher than the 100th harmonic which will be far below any audible levels.

I hope you learned something. That's why I have invested quite a few hours in posting replies and even doing your 'test'.
And if you didn't learn much I hope some other readers may have learned something.

The most important things you can take away from this are:

Distortion isn't only harmonic. With harmonic also comes IM as soon as more than 1 frequency is applied and needs to be high enough in level.

Constant single or dual tones can be used to detect audibility thresholds for humans (which also will differ) in controlled circumstances.
These levels differ a LOT from what you can detect using music.

Some recordings may be more suited than others for detecting distortion so is recording and level dependent and gear dependent.

Distortion character of an amp changes with amplitude so to emulate that exactly you it would be complicated.

Listening SPL and transducers (+ room) matters.

Masking is a complex thing and really exists. If it didn't and wasn't known how that works lossy codecs would be able to sound indistinguishable for the majority of people.

You still haven't proven to be a special snowflake that can detect 'deeper' than other members.

When you quote someone make sure you also include the context.

Try to get a better understanding from what is said.

Dive deeper in matter than just finding a wiki or anecdotal evidence.

Try to get a deeper grasp of all shown measurements, what they can tell you and what not and what the test conditions were.

Ah, I think we are arguing without proper definition of thd of bass means to higher freq

I am considering 250 part of bass. 5th harmonic of 250hz, 1250hz is considered high to me.

Like I mentioned in post above, even 3rd harmonic, 750hz, I am already consider that "higher freq", as compared to 250hz.

 

[Jimbob54]

Ah, I think we are arguing without proper definition of thd of bass means to higher freq

I am considering 250 part of bass. 5th harmonic of 250hz, 1250hz is considered high to me.

Like I mentioned in post above, even 3rd harmonic, 750hz, I am already consider that "high", as compared to 250hz.

251 is higher than 250. Doesnt make it a "high" in anyone's view of the audible spectrum.

There is little point in playing petty word games is there? I think it's time you moved on from this whole idea.

Other than trying to prove a pretty off the cuff remark of Solderdude's wrong, what are you seeking to gain?

 

[Pdxwayne]

251 is higher than 250. Doesnt make it a "high" in anyone's view of the audible spectrum.

There is little point in playing petty word games is there? I think it's time you moved on from this whole idea.

Other than trying to prove a pretty off the cuff remark of Solderdude's wrong, what are you seeking to gain?

Have fun?

At least it is interesting to me to see pretty good range of hearing limits.

How about you, why are you in this thread?
; )

 

[Jimbob54]

Have fun?

At least it is interesting to me to see pretty good range of hearing limits.

How about you, why are you in this thread?
; )

Then go away and test to your hearts content and come back with something others can try that might contradict established understanding.

I think you want to prove you are an outlier but don't really know how to prove it. So figure that out and return with something that might help you prove that. Don't just invent a test off the cuff that you think proves something.

As for me, I'm interested in how far you can push the naive but ignorant routine before you get declared an outright troll. Others would say you're already there but I'll give you the benefit.

Do yourself a favour and listen to those here that have the knowledge you seek*, but don't try and bully them into spoonfeeding you.

* not me, I know nothing, as regularly stated.

 

[solderdude]

I am considering 250 part of bass.

Finally you are saying something that is actually true. But this is not the 'bass' you initially talked about was it ?

picture is from: https://www.studybass.com/gear/bass-tone-and-eq/bass-frequency-range/