Can you hear a difference? 250hz and 1250hz playing at same time, but 1250 Hz is at 60db down. Vs pure 250hz tone.

[Pdxwayne]

Clearly you understood wrong.
This came from another thread which was about masking of harmonics in music and your thesis that low bass harmonics most likely elevated the treble by 2dB.
Your 'test' clearly is (by accident ?) right at the border of audible masking and had nothing to do with the disagreement about distortion, masking etc.



I meant if you can hear it others can too.
Theory predicted that you can detect -60dB 5th harm. with tones (again not with music).
You are no special snowflake (nor am I) despite your thesis that you could be 1 in 100000 that possibly could do this and later found out that your speakers gave you an unfair advantage.
The fact that your wife and kids could not hear is might be lack of interest, training or being fed up with tests they do not care about and are not obvious.

Yes, the 'anyone can hear it' statement was a bit bold but not as bold as the claims you constantly make.
Clearly, people that don't care, circumstances that are not correct, people without training won't pass your test.

The fact that I and some others can AB this with headphones with clear results and you could not so in your case at the SPL levels you tried masking occurred.

Good that you clarify your statements. Thanks!

If I recall correctly, we have 4 or more people who tried and can't sense. I am assuming at least two did more checks than others. For that two, I assume:
* without big hearing issue
* with decent chain that can produce reasonably flat freq respond between the tones
*already tried multiple times using different volume levels
*Checked using tones at different db levels
*Checked using multiple hardware chains

Since they already did so much work and determined that their limit were around -55 and -57, can't we at least agree that there are many differences in individual hearing limit and -60 likely is not easy for many people?

[Edit]
It just occurred to me.....Is it reasonable to assume that people who join ASR are music lover, and thus majority likely to have “above average” hearing sensitivity?

So, the results we have so far likely are from mostly "above average" hearing sensitivity participants. If in this group we already have multiple people who can not sense, what are the changes for "below average" sensitivity population to sense a difference?

Just a food for thought.

 

[Jimbob54]

[Edit]
It just occurred to me.....Is it reasonable to assume that people who join ASR are music lover, and thus majority likely to have “above average” hearing sensitivity?

No- but they may think they do ;-)

 

[Pdxwayne]

No- but they may think they do ;-)

Haha.

Can we at least agree that we have a range of sensitivity limits and -60 is likely beyond the limit of certain population?

 

[Killingbeans]

Absolutely. Especially when you are not painstakingly trying to detect errors. And like solderdude has pointed out again and again; when you play actual music instead of test tones, the "damage" done by distortion gets appallingly insignificant.

I did a quick test with a pure 1250Hz tone. With my PC setup at my normal listening level, it becomes undetectable at around -52dB.

My setup is lousy for critical listening and/or I have tin ears. I'm not surprised. Doesn't really bother me though

 

[Robbo99999]

Good that you clarify your statements. Thanks!

If I recall correctly, we have 4 or more people who tried and can't sense. I am assuming at least two did more checks than others. For that two, I assume:
* without big hearing issue
* with decent chain that can produce reasonably flat freq respond between the tones
*already tried multiple times using different volume levels
*Checked using tones at different db levels
*Checked using multiple hardware chains

Since they already did so much work and determined that their limit were around -55 and -57, can't we at least agree that there are many differences in individual hearing limit and -60 likely is not easy for many people?

[Edit]
It just occurred to me.....Is it reasonable to assume that people who join ASR are music lover, and thus majority likely to have “above average” hearing sensitivity?

So, the results we have so far likely are from mostly "above average" hearing sensitivity participants. If in this group we already have multiple people who can not sense, what are the changes for "below average" sensitivity population to sense a difference?

Just a food for thought.

There's probably not that much to conclude, but certainly there have been a few people that have controlled the hardware variables as best they can & some can hear the -60dB and some can't.....so not everyone can hear it - so what, that's fine. And for the others that didn't control their hardware variables then their test results carry less significance/weight, but regardless of this last point we still already know from the people that did control their hardware that not everyone can detect the -60dB 1250Hz.

Given what we've learned here, what are we trying to redefine or are we not trying to redefine anything? Are we trying to redefine what is "a potentially audible distortion level"? If you are then you'd have to make sure everyone was using flat measuring gear, then you'd ask them listen to various files with increasingly lower dB 1250Hz tone until they could no longer distinguish a difference. Then if loads & loads of us did the test with controlled hardware then you could say "well noone was able to detect below -80dB" or something along those lines....something like that might go towards redefining definitions of what can be potentially audible. But that's a big ask from everyone here to do such tests & in controlled way, so it's unlikely to happen. The other problem is as @solderdude mentioned that this test isn't representative of distortion in music, so what's the relevance of the test anyway. So what are we trying to achieve ultimately here?

 

[Pdxwayne]

There's probably not that much to conclude, but certainly there have been a few people that have controlled the hardware variables as best they can & some can hear the -60dB and some can't.....so not everyone can hear it - so what, that's fine. And for the others that didn't control their hardware variables then their test results carry less significance/weight, but regardless of this last point we still already know from the people that did control their hardware that not everyone can detect the -60dB 1250Hz.

Given what we've learned here, what are we trying to redefine or are we not trying to redefine anything? Are we trying to redefine what is "a potentially audible distortion level"? If you are then you'd have to make sure everyone was using flat measuring gear, then you'd ask them listen to various files with increasingly lower dB 1250Hz tone until they could no longer distinguish a difference. Then if loads & loads of us did the test with controlled hardware then you could say "well noone was able to detect below -80dB" or something along those lines....something like that might go towards redefining definitions of what can be potentially audible. But that's a big ask from everyone here to do such tests & in controlled way, so it's unlikely to happen. The other problem is as @solderdude mentioned that this test isn't representative of distortion in music, so what's the relevance of the test anyway. So what are we trying to achieve ultimately here?

Good questions!

Like I mentioned in another thread, electronica music can contains any combination of tones. Let's assume I am the music creator and for the fun of it, for a short few seconds, I have two tones at 250hz and 1250hz.

Let's say the 250 Hz is at 0db and 1250 Hz fundamental tone is at -50db.

Would high distortion in 250 hz (like -60 5th harmonic) cause 1250 Hz tone to sound more than 2db louder? Is it audible?

We have found quite a few members here who can easily pass the abx. Is it possible for those individual to easily sense the added 2+ dB in 1250hz?

Of cause, I am ignoring other distortions that can cause masking issue...But still curious.

 

[Robbo99999]

Good question!

Like I mentioned in another thread, electronica music can contains any combination of tones. Let's assume I am the music creator and for the fun of it, for a short few seconds, I have two tones at 250hz and 1250hz.

Let's say the 250 Hz is at 0db and 1250 Hz fundamental tone is at -50db.

Would high distortion in 250 hz (like -60 5th harmonic) cause 1250 Hz tone to sound more than 2db louder? Is it audible?

We have found quite a few members here who can easily pass the abx. Is it possible for those individual to sense the added 2+ dB in 1250hz?

Of cause, I am ignoring other distortions that can cause masking issue...But still curious.

Ok, so I'm interpreting that you didn't start the thread to try to redefine what was potentially audible distortion & what wasn't - in terms of redefining limits.

So in that case I'm still a bit lost on the purpose. In your example you talk about a headphone changing the perceived sound by adding distortion - well we know that can happen if distortion is really bad. You'd just choose a headphone that was overdesigned from a distortion point of view - in other words you'd just make sure you choose a low distortion headphone. It would help to set some limits on measured distortion of the headphones you buy. But I think distortion in headphones is overexaggerated in it's importance on some sites, for instance this is my actual unit of K702 that was measured by Oratory for distortion (relatively high in some places), yet it is a joint favourite headphone of mine (with my HD560s):

Mind you I don't listen at levels much above 86dB for a max RMS peak (dark green line), which would mean pretty much all frequencies are below 1% distortion (well actually you can say below 0.2% for the whole frequency range apart from below 70Hz and the two peaks between 1-2kHz). Yeah, so my lowest distortion headphones in my arsenal are not necessarily my favourites, there's no correlation re distortion.

But I'm still not clear on what you're ultimately trying to achieve with your tests & conclusions - on a practical application level (ie choosing which headphones to buy). I'm not too clear theoretically what you're wanting to achieve either? I do like your thread though, it's interesting to discuss these things, and the test have been interesting to do.

 

[solderdude]

Would high distortion in 250 hz (like -60 5th harmonic) cause 1250 Hz tone to sound more than 2db louder? Is it audible?

You probably mean when you have 0.3% distortion at 250 Hz could the harmonic (at -50dB) add 2dB to an also present tone around 1250 Hz of say -40dB ?

You don't need to 'test' that you can calculate this and the answer is yes... it will add 2.5dB. That could probably be ABX able with tones.
The thing is not so with music as extremely likely there are others signals around 1kHz that are louder than that so will mask that 1.2kHz -40dB tone.

 

[Pdxwayne]

Ok, so I'm interpreting that you didn't start the thread to try to redefine what was potentially audible distortion & what wasn't - in terms of redefining limits.

So in that case I'm still a bit lost on the purpose. In your example you talk about a headphone changing the perceived sound by adding distortion - well we know that can happen if distortion is really bad. You'd just choose a headphone that was overdesigned from a distortion point of view - in other words you'd just make sure you choose a low distortion headphone. It would help to set some limits on measured distortion of the headphones you buy. But I think distortion in headphones is overexaggerated in it's importance on some sites, for instance this is my actual unit of K702 that was measured by Oratory for distortion (relatively high in some places), yet it is a joint favourite headphone of mine (with my HD560s):
View attachment 161710
Mind you I don't listen at levels much above 86dB for a max RMS (dark green line), which would mean pretty much all frequencies are below 1% distortion. Yeah, so my lowest distortion headphones in my arsenal are not necessarily my favourites, there's no correlation re distortion.

But I'm still not clear on what you're ultimately trying to achieve with your tests & conclusions - on a practical application level (ie choosing which headphones to buy). I'm not too clear theoretically what you're wanting to achieve either? I do like your thread though, it's interesting to discuss these things, and the test have been interesting to do.

I appreciate your participation! Thank you for liking the thread!

All this got started due to discussions in another thread about THD audibility.

The OP said high THD in the bass (I think he mentioned amp in his example) likely can cause audible distortions in higher freqs.

Solderdude said it is not possible. I then asked questions about scenarios that could be possible.....Somehow it leads to Solderdude saying that hearing -60 is easy and anyone can hear it and I decided to create this thread to check that.
: )

Nonetheless, this is a fun thread for me too. Still interesting to find my limit of hearing.

 

[Pdxwayne]

You probably mean when you have 0.3% distortion at 250 Hz could the harmonic (at -50dB) add 2dB to an also present tone around 1250 Hz of say -40dB ?

You don't need to 'test' that you can calculate this and the answer is yes... it will add 2.5dB. That could probably be ABX able with tones.
The thing is not so with music as extremely likely there are others signals around 1kHz that are louder than that so will mask that 1.2kHz -40dB tone.

I was thinking about 0.1% (-60) harmonic added to 1250 Hz fundamental at -50db. It should add about 2.4db.

But your example works too.

Yeah, agree that with normal music, other tones likely to mask that tone.

I was using theoretical electronica music as a not-that-normal example.

 

[Robbo99999]

I appreciate your participation! Thank you for liking the thread!

All this got started due to discussions in another thread about THD audibility.

The OP said high THD in the bass (I think he mentioned amp in his example) likely can cause audible distortions in higher freqs.

Solderdude said it is not possible. I then asked questions about scenarios that could be possible.....Somehow it leads to Solderdude saying that hearing -60 is easy and anyone can hear it and I decided to create this thread to check that.
: )

Nonetheless, this is a fun thread for me too. Still interesting to find my limit of hearing.

I can certainly say I'm not clear on when %THD of an amp can become audible (there's probably dispute on this), but in terms of headphone amps in particular it's quite easy to choose an amp that definitely has way below possible audible levels of distortion - as in many many headphone amps reviewed on this site that measure awesomely, so you'd just choose a headphone amp that measures well. I chose my JDS Labs Atom Amp for that exact reason - "set it & forget it", it's transparent.

 

[Pdxwayne]

I can certainly say I'm not clear on when %THD of an amp can become audible (there's probably dispute on this), but in terms of headphone amps in particular it's quite easy to choose an amp that definitely has way below possible audible levels of distortion - as in many many headphone amps reviewed on this site that measure awesomely, so you'd just choose a headphone amp that measures well. I chose my JDS Labs Atom Amp for that exact reason - "set it & forget it", it's transparent.

Yes, it is great that now plenty of headphones amps are transperant. I am using Topping L30, Sabaj a10h, and Gustard H16. All measured great by Amir.

In the other thread, stereo amp for speakers were discussed. There was one bad amp in particular that was mentioned, but even then, 5th harmonic is lower than -60, I believe. I don't think there are many amps for speakers out there that can be that bad.....So, in practice, using decent amp, one is unlikely to meet a case where additional +2db 5th harmonic is added to 1250hz. But, in theory.....

 

[Xulonn]

I tried to understand the value of this 232 post, 12-page thread with respect to my understanding and/or appreciation of audio engineering and music listening, but the only thing that pops into my mind is related to my interest in the psychology of audiophilia. Yet again, like many times in the past, I pondered the threshold of a healthy interest in the hobby of audio, and where does it cross over into obsessive-compulsive behavior with little or no practical value.

Indeed, it was only my interest in the psychological aspect that motivated me to do a combination of skimming and reading of the entire thread. Otherwise, for me, it would be a CWOT, a la Monty Python. (Not that I have not participated in - and enjoyed - and a fair number of CWOT's in my lifetime.)

 

[Pdxwayne]

I tried to understand the value of this 232 post, 12-page thread with respect to my understanding and/or appreciation of audio engineering and music listening, but the only thing that pops into my mind is related to my interest in the psychology of audiophilia. Yet again, like many times in the past, I pondered the threshold of a healthy interest in the hobby of audio, and where does it cross over into obsessive-compulsive behavior with little or no practical value.

View attachment 161720​

Indeed, it was only my interest in the psychological aspect that motivated me to do a combination of skimming and reading of the entire thread. Otherwise, for me, it would be a CWOT, a la Monty Python. (Not that I have not participated in - and enjoyed - and a fair number of CWOT's in my lifetime.)

Haha.

I am trying to think of a real life scenario that could possibly be meaningful.....

Let's construct a chain from the hardwares reviewed by Amir.

It is possible that a user can use this chain:
Topping MX3 to analog in of minidsp 2x4 HD to analog in of Pass ACA.

Using Amir's charts information and online calculator, I estimated that the combined distortions from the chain would cause 250hz at 0db to add +1db 5th harmonics to 1250hz. Using my theoretical electornica music with 2 tones (250hz at 0db, 1250 Hz fundamental at -50db), conceivably anyone who easily passed the abx of this thread can sense a difference of 1db using this chain, in compared to using a chain that is pretty much transparent. Just guessing. Likely very wrong.
: P

 

[spacevector]

Using my theoretical electornica music with 2 tones (250hz at 0db, 1250 Hz fundamental at -50db), conceivably anyone who easily passed the abx of this thread can sense a difference of 1db using this chain, in compared to using a chain that is pretty much transparent.

Only during ABX testing right?
If one fine day, somebody modified the chain to get rid of the distortion without the listener knowing, would the dear listener notice when listening to the 2 tone portion of the electronica music?

 

[solderdude]

To put things in perspective.

The worst measuring (tube) headphone amp Amir measured had 5th harmonic at -95dB
I have not seen HA measured worse than -102 (also tube).

For speaker amps the ACA was the worst and at 2W after warm-up (7W max output power) = -85dB.
Now you know not to worry when -60dB is bordering on audibility for 5th harmonic with tones.

So even an amp with a -70dB 5th harmonic is utterly inaudible and probably don't even exits that bad unless clipping or broken.
With music this is completely inaudible.

So yes... an amp with -60dB 5th harmonic will indeed add 2.5dB to a tone that is -50dB around 1.2kHz and would already be difficult to hear with tones.
I have not seen measurements of amps doing even remotely this bad so while your experiment was 'fun' it had no relation to any practical issues.

Oh.. speakers and headphones may well distort a lot at certain frequencies but these are 2nd and 3rd dominated, 4th and higher harmonics are very very low.

 

[Pdxwayne]

Only during ABX testing right?
If one fine day, somebody modified the chain to get rid of the distortion without the listener knowing, would the dear listener notice when listening to the 2 tone portion of the electronica music?

I don't know.....Maybe someone who have been enjoying that unique song of mine (haha) for a while can sense something is a little off?

In my other thread, I sensed a difference when switched from E30 to Gustard x16 in my living room setup. I was using an electeonica song that I have enjoyed for a while. I felt a difference without abx. It was later found out that Gustard has 0.2db channel imbalance.....

 

[Pdxwayne]

To put things in perspective.

The worst measuring (tube) headphone amp Amir measured had 5th harmonic at -95dB
I have not seen HA measured worse than -102 (also tube).

For speaker amps the ACA was the worst and at 2W after warm-up (7W max output power) = -85dB.
Now you know not to worry when -60dB is bordering on audibility for 5th harmonic with tones.

So even an amp with a -70dB 5th harmonic is utterly inaudible and probably don't even exits that bad unless clipping or broken.
With music this is completely inaudible.

So yes... an amp with -60dB 5th harmonic will indeed add 2.5dB to a tone that is -50dB around 1.2kHz and would already be difficult to hear with tones.
I have not seen measurements of amps doing even remotely this bad so while your experiment was 'fun' it had no relation to any practical issues.

Oh.. speakers and headphones may well distort a lot at certain frequencies but these are 2nd and 3rd dominated, 4th and higher harmonics are very very low.

What about a combination of dac, minidsp, amp as mentioned in https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...0db-down-vs-pure-250hz-tone.27533/post-954261

Let's say 5 watt for amp. With my unique song, possible?

 

[solderdude]

Topping MX3 to analog in of minidsp 2x4 HD to analog in of Pass ACA

5th harm. at 0dB in MX3 as well as mini DSP (which are both -105dB 5th and will be lower at -3dB ?).
They can contribute to the -85dB distortion of the ACA would elevate the total 5th to -83dB.
That is far, far below the -60dB in your test.
So the answer is a very definitive NO even if a user used that chain he could not even hear it with 2 single tones if his life depended on it.
He may well hear crappy sound (while audiophools may be in sonic heaven ?) but that's not from the 5th harmonic nor higher ones (which are lower) but would be from IMD and not the HD as those would be masked by the harmonics of instruments themselves.

In other words.. you can think, assume and maybe this or that but it isn't the case.
You need to find something else to disagree on

 

[Pdxwayne]

5th harm. at 0dB in MX3 as well as mini DSP (which are both -105dB 5th and will be lower at -3dB ?).
They can contribute to the -85dB distortion of the ACA would elevate the total 5th to -83dB.
That is far, far below the -60dB in your test.
So the answer is a very definitive NO even if a user used that chain he could not even hear it with 2 single tones if his life depended on it.
He may well hear crappy sound (while audiophools may be in sonic heaven ?) but that's not from the 5th harmonic nor higher ones (which are lower) but would be from IMD and not the HD as those would be masked by the harmonics of instruments themselves.

In other words.. you can think, assume and maybe this or that but it isn't the case.
You need to find something else to disagree on

Would you please calculate 5 watts or more cold?

For 5th:
DAC = -112 dB
Minidsp analog in = -107.5
Amp at 5 watts cold is -68db.
Combined all 3 is -67.854 db

Add that to -50 1250 hz fundamental tone (using my special electronics song), we get -48.954.

So, 5th added ~1.046db to fundamental 1250hz tone.