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Can you define me a threshold for "audible - hearable"?

tikky

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Any specific examples?

Paul, With all my respect for your work, and I am really looking for you to port DeltaWave so we can use it on Macosx too, I was referring to this test.

https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...ussion-and-beta-test.19841/page-3#post-715298

I downloaded the files and I passed the test even PK metric shows lower than -50. While PK Metric most of the time correct but we have to add these factors to the sound production as it's part of it.

I'm not sure if we call it "cheating" but Amir did pass such tests that maybe PK metric would show very low values. It's all about catching the differences if he can catch it, then it's audible to me.

 
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pkane

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Paul, With all my respect for your work, and I am really looking for you to port DeltaWave so we can use it on Macosx too, I was referring to this test.

https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...ussion-and-beta-test.19841/page-3#post-715298

I downloaded the files and I passed the test even PK metric shows lower than -50. While PK Metric most of the time correct but we have to add these factors to the sound production as it's part of it.

I'm not sure if we call it "cheating" but Amir did pass such tests that maybe PK metric would show very low values. It's all about catching the differences if he can catch it, then it's audible to me.


I'd try Wine to see if you can run DeltaWave on MacOS. It does work on Linux, for example, although some have reported that it is a bit slow.

By the way, I'm looking into feedback on PK Error Metric not so that I can argue :) but because I want to know if there are some things that I can improve. It's not perfect, and will never be, simply because I can't account for every possible known or unknown masking effect, frequency response, or hearing variability.

Expecting -50dB PK Metric to be completely inaudible is a mistake. It is not an absolute bound where things become completely inaudible. Just the opposite: this is where I'd expect the differences to start becoming somewhat harder to hear. The true bound will be much lower, especially if you consider that PKEM is based on averaged results from a number of studies: there will always be those individuals that hear better or worse than the average.

Now that I have more experience measuring devices with PKEM, I'd say the better audibility threshold is below -80dBr. That's not to say that some will still not hear differences even below that, but this is where most, what I'd consider transparent systems, have measured. Truly excellent, transparent systems have measured at well below -110dB.
 

tikky

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I'd try Wine to see if you can run DeltaWave on MacOS. It does work on Linux, for example, although some have reported that it is a bit slow.

By the way, I'm looking into feedback on PK Error Metric not so that I can argue :) but because I want to know if there are some things that I can improve. It's not perfect, and will never be, simply because I can't account for every possible known or unknown masking effect, frequency response, or hearing variability.

Expecting -50dB PK Metric to be completely inaudible is a mistake. It is not an absolute bound where things become completely inaudible. Just the opposite: this is where I'd expect the differences to start becoming somewhat harder to hear. The true bound will be much lower, especially if you consider that PKEM is based on averaged results from a number of studies: there will always be those individuals that hear better or worse than the average.

Now that I have more experience measuring devices with PKEM, I'd say the better audibility threshold is below -80dBr. That's not to say that some will still not hear differences even below that, but this is where most, what I'd consider transparent systems, have measured. Truly excellent, transparent systems have measured at well below -110dB.

Paul, I tried wine and crossover with no luck :( I would loooovve to have a native Macosx version for this state of the art software and I am ready to donate or purchase if there is any plan once I see it working on macOS as a native app. I can sure run Parallel Desktop but it's slower to analyze anyway.

Except for some edgy scenarios, PK Metric works flawlessly but there is still room for improvements. This has been a discussion for years and if somebody can find a 100% failsafe threshold it would be a gamechanger in the audio business. As you stated there will be always more trained ears to hear differences and it can't be perfect but it can be very close to perfect. I just want to eliminate the psychological factors between shootout comparison.
 
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