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Can you beat my option? KEF LS50 Wireless II + SVS SB-2000 Pro

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Vahidhm

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How do built-in DSP and a phone app make a significant difference with subs?

If he does go the AVR route, he will have Audyssey XT32 which will cinch room issues affecting the bass region up to his chosen cutoff point. Other hardware he is considering may have similar. That is superior to the DSP on the sub, which does not take the room into account – it's only to shape the response of the sub itself. There are other ways to do that, for example Rythmik gets the response they want without DSP.

And once the sub(s) are set up you hardly ever, if ever, change their settings again.

I see these as value-added features that justify SVS premium price, but they are unnecessary. My 0.02.

I agree with you. If I ended up with an AVR, which is probably going to be Denon X3700H, the Audyssey should take care of all required DSP and all I need is just a/two dumb subwoofer. In that case Rythmik L12 ($100 more expensive) could be arguably better than SB-1000 pro (not better than SVS2000pro IMO). But If I ended up with a non AVR system and without a room correction DSP, the SVS DSP would be quite useful for me. It would probably refine some of the most striking bass issues. That is how I am looking at it. (BTW Rythmiks have been on backorder for a while)
 

Chromatischism

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But If I ended up with a non AVR system and without a room correction DSP, the SVS DSP would be quite useful for me. It would probably refine some of the most striking bass issues. That is how I am looking at it.
It is my understanding that SVS DSP gives control to the sub response in the same way that PSA (owner co-founded SVS) does. All of the functionality here is also implemented on the Rythmik plate amp in analog:

https://www.svsound.com/blogs/subwoofer-setup-and-tuning/75346755-understanding-dsp

It does not measure the room so it does not replace room correction. It could offer convenience during setup, though.
 
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Vahidhm

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It is my understanding that SVS DSP gives control to the sub response in the same way that PSA (owner co-founded SVS) does. All of the functionality here is also implemented on the Rythmik plate amp in analog:

https://www.svsound.com/blogs/subwoofer-setup-and-tuning/75346755-understanding-dsp

It does not measure the room so it does not replace room correction. It could offer convenience during setup, though.

Thank you for the link. lots of good information. For the room correction, you are right. it does not measure the room however, I think with a UMIK microphone and REW and tweaking the subwoofer PEQ, there would be some improvement similar to a real room correction software. I know it will be very limited but it is better than nothing IMO
 
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Vahidhm

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I like your original plan better. Shoot for a 3.1 system to build to 5.2. Don't see how you can actually utilize 2 subs in an apartment with that layout. If you pressurized that open area all the way to the kitchen it would shake the whole apartment building. Guessing you can try and optimize the one sub for the couch. Video games are being mixed for surround and even Atmos now. There are a lot of compromises to get the small KEFs and rely on their wireless implementation and app. Throwing out some alternatives here.

Revel F35s - (these can be had for $1100-$1200 for a pair if you're patient or negotiate with a dealer)
SVS Pro 1000
3-way center (wait for Infinity RC263 sales at $160 or other for $250-400)
Best Denon AVR you can afford.
Add additional sub and/or M16 surrounds as you can.

Alternative can be 4 DBR62s a 3-way center like those above or the Elac Unifi 2.0 c52, AVR, and 12" sub like a dayton or a scratch and dent SVS. If you really want multiple subs do a 3.2 DBR 62 and Pro 1000s

I am getting gradually more inclined to the AVR route but I am going to stick to 2.1 or for now. Elac speakers are defiantly a strong option but Revels are going to be overprice
 
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Vahidhm

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You can tell better than I if sound travels in the building. I think your best bet would be a pair of JBL 708p active monitors and skip the subs for now. Read the review here at ASR. I can tell you from experience that if you haven't done it before setting up subs is a PITA. The 708's play loud and go low. You will need a DAC (preferably balanced), or a gadget to convert your sources to AES. It's more than your plan, but I'm afraid the room is too big for LS50's
JBLs are too expensive for my target price. I have seen a couple of other members mentioned that the room is too big for little LS50s but some others said it should be a good fit. I know it is more of a subjective area. Some people like very loud music, or they want to have their desired level at any point of a room not just in listening position. In addition to that, people tend to have different tolerances for the headroom. Seems all too subjective. I just used a simple calculator and here are the results

spl.JPG


Here is also a snip of the KEF LS50WII for the amp power and max SPL
ssspl.JPG
 

FrantzM

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I am getting gradually more inclined to the AVR route but I am going to stick to 2.1 or for now. Elac speakers are defiantly a strong option but Revels are going to be overprice
Well... The AVR Route doesn't preclude you going with 2 channel plus subs. I am not a fan of one subwoofer myself but to each its own.

We often don't realize how powerful Digital Signal Processors, many run-of-the mill AVR actually are. If one takes some time to understand their working, one will achieve excellent results. In particular Audyssey is one unheralded but IMHO very good DRC. although it doesn't call itself ny that name. it seems to be a simple setup thing for multiple speakers. it is a lot more. The company itself should heed the advices of many of its devoted fans (your servitor is one) and provide a PC version with better control and different correction curves than the difficult to customize app. I digress.
so let's get back to using an AVR with Audyssey and compatible with the IOS or Android App (There are lists of models that are compatible on the web, ASR and AVS Forum in particular). A good AVR with the Audyssey App, can transform a system from OK to very good, with a bit of effort. I have read that the DRC from Anthem is better ... or that Dirac is more flexible as Dirac is beginning to appear in some AVR (Onkyo? Pioneer?) . Plus you can move to MCH/Movies when the time comes.

I would suggest you to think 2 subwoofers. 2 SVS 1000 in your room shall provide better results than one SB2000...
AVR with Line outputs and Audyssey or Dirac... I would suggest the Denon AVR3700
Active Speakers , repeating myself a bit .. JBL 708p ($3600.pair), JBL 705p ($2,000/pair) , Neuman KH310 ( $4200/pair) or Genelec equivalent. IMHO the JBLs represent the best Price to quality ratio in the USA if you're in Europe perhaps Neuman or Genelec could be the answer.

Peace
 

dkinric

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How do built-in DSP and a phone app make a significant difference with subs?

If he does go the AVR route, he will have Audyssey XT32 which will cinch room issues affecting the bass region up to his chosen cutoff point. Other hardware he is considering may have similar. That is superior to the DSP on the sub, which does not take the room into account – it's only to shape the response of the sub itself. There are other ways to do that, for example Rythmik gets the response they want without DSP.

And once the sub(s) are set up you hardly ever, if ever, change their settings again.

I see these as value-added features that justify SVS premium price, but they are unnecessary. My 0.02.
My point was that DSP is extremely useful for sub integration. Yes, if you are going with DSP on a receiver, then it is not needed. If you are going with a more traditional two channel separates system, it is a good alternative if lacking full DSP.

My ML Dynamos do measure the room using Anthem ARC. During the setup procedure, it sends bass tones out that are measured at varying points around the listening position by the phone app. The results are measured, then the correction curve is sent to the sub (s). This DSP correction can be toggled on/off on the app, as well as adjusting crossover, phase, and level on the fly from the app at the listening position. Extremely useful, convenient and effective. Paradigm and now SVS have incorporated similar systems into their subs.
 

alex-z

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I haven't had time to read the whole thread, but I will say that pushing a full 100 watts into LS50's doesn't come freely. KEF does some great engineering, but this is still a 5.25" coaxial driver so with more power comes more distortion.

The KEF R3 doesn't have the meta-material design of the LS50 Wireless II, but it makes up for that with a 3 way design.

When amir tested the R3 at 10V input (equivalent to 105dB/80 watts), distortion was less than .5% from 250-20000Hz.

Being $500 cheaper, you could take that money and get a good amp + miniDSP 2x4HD to drive the setup.
 

dominikz

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My 2c is, whichever option you select, make sure you include some means to apply precise EQ up to at least 300Hz (e.g. good AVRs, miniDSP units or similar) and a measurement mic like UMIK-1 to validate results.
IMHO room EQ is absolutely critical for great sound quality, and IMHO matters much more than e.g. amplifier or DAC performance (unless very poor). TBH, I'd even rather save a bit on speakers :oops: than be without EQ capability, if I had to choose.
 

Chromatischism

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Thank you for the link. lots of good information. For the room correction, you are right. it does not measure the room however, I think with a UMIK microphone and REW and tweaking the subwoofer PEQ, there would be some improvement similar to a real room correction software. I know it will be very limited but it is better than nothing IMO
Right, it is all manual PEQ. You can do that either with the SVS app or the PEQ controls on the Rythmik plate amp. If your needs are more complex, you'd want a MiniDSP.
 

Chromatischism

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My point was that DSP is extremely useful for sub integration. Yes, if you are going with DSP on a receiver, then it is not needed. If you are going with a more traditional two channel separates system, it is a good alternative if lacking full DSP.

My ML Dynamos do measure the room using Anthem ARC. During the setup procedure, it sends bass tones out that are measured at varying points around the listening position by the phone app. The results are measured, then the correction curve is sent to the sub (s). This DSP correction can be toggled on/off on the app, as well as adjusting crossover, phase, and level on the fly from the app at the listening position. Extremely useful, convenient and effective. Paradigm and now SVS have incorporated similar systems into their subs.
According to SVS website, and unless I missed it, their DSP is not room correction. It is a DSP amp. So unless he gets Martin Logan, or Paradigm, or any other high-end (price, not performance) sub, it won't have that.

I like dumb subs for the same reasons I like dumb TVs. Just play what I send to you and we'll get along just fine :)
 

Chrise36

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Try to get the KH310A and you can drive them even from a good phone like LG etc that has eq. Do a simple parametric eq if you want. Add two or more subs later one is not enough.
 
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Vahidhm

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Well... The AVR Route doesn't preclude you going with 2 channel plus subs. I am not a fan of one subwoofer myself but to each its own.

We often don't realize how powerful Digital Signal Processors, many run-of-the mill AVR actually are. If one takes some time to understand their working, one will achieve excellent results. In particular Audyssey is one unheralded but IMHO very good DRC. although it doesn't call itself ny that name. it seems to be a simple setup thing for multiple speakers. it is a lot more. The company itself should heed the advices of many of its devoted fans (your servitor is one) and provide a PC version with better control and different correction curves than the difficult to customize app. I digress.
so let's get back to using an AVR with Audyssey and compatible with the IOS or Android App (There are lists of models that are compatible on the web, ASR and AVS Forum in particular). A good AVR with the Audyssey App, can transform a system from OK to very good, with a bit of effort. I have read that the DRC from Anthem is better ... or that Dirac is more flexible as Dirac is beginning to appear in some AVR (Onkyo? Pioneer?) . Plus you can move to MCH/Movies when the time comes.

I understand the importance of room correction and from what is available today (major ones) I would rank them as 1. Lyngdorf Room Perfect 2. Dirac Live 3. Audessy. I did pick Lyngdorf TDAI 1120 and then NAD M10 as my initial simple all in one options and honestly still love the 1120 on paper :D (I would buy that if I were in Europe). the thing that made me pass on the AVRs (e.g Denon X3700) is that IMO this unit is tailored to effectively manage 9 channels audio and process many different codecs, pass through the video, room correction, Bluetooth and wifi, amplification, and many other features. But what I mainly need is only a good quality stereo amp with room correction. The room correction part is there but I doubted the good stereo amp. It is like an overall overkill yet underperformer. I may be totally wrong about other separate system with the perception of they would do better in just stereo (they could be as bad or as good as poor AVR) but it is hard to compare.

I would suggest you to think 2 subwoofers. 2 SVS 1000 in your room shall provide better results than one SB2000... AVR with Line outputs and Audyssey or Dirac... I would suggest the Denon AVR3700 Active Speakers said:
In case of AVR, I do like the Denon 3700 but I can not afford those active speakers so I may choose the ELACs or LS50 metas
 
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Vahidhm

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I haven't had time to read the whole thread, but I will say that pushing a full 100 watts into LS50's doesn't come freely. KEF does some great engineering, but this is still a 5.25" coaxial driver so with more power comes more distortion.

The KEF R3 doesn't have the meta-material design of the LS50 Wireless II, but it makes up for that with a 3 way design.

When amir tested the R3 at 10V input (equivalent to 105dB/80 watts), distortion was less than .5% from 250-20000Hz.

Being $500 cheaper, you could take that money and get a good amp + miniDSP 2x4HD to drive the setup.
Thank you for the comments. I really liked the minidsp the SHD is my favorite but volumio or Room are not very good for what I need. There is no HDMI input. R3s are great but they make the overall cost over my budget
 
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Vahidhm

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My 2c is, whichever option you select, make sure you include some means to apply precise EQ up to at least 300Hz (e.g. good AVRs, miniDSP units or similar) and a measurement mic like UMIK-1 to validate results.
IMHO room EQ is absolutely critical for great sound quality, and IMHO matters much more than e.g. amplifier or DAC performance (unless very poor). TBH, I'd even rather save a bit on speakers :oops: than be without EQ capability, if I had to choose.

If I stick with my option, I should be able to do some manual PEQ through the SVS app for subwoofer using a UMIK-1 and REW but up to the crossover point. If I go with an AVR, Audessy should take care of that.
 

thewas

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Yes, around 9 to 10 ft approximately
What I see more detrimental to a high audiophile experience is that your couch is directly at the rear wall whose close reflections reduce the spatial quality of a good loudspeaker, unless you use some significant absorption.
 

dominikz

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The room correction part is there but I doubted the good stereo amp. It is like an overall overkill yet underperformer. I may be totally wrong about other separate system with the perception of they would do better in just stereo (they could be as bad or as good as poor AVR) but it is hard to compare.
In my experience and humble opinion transparency is relatively easily achieved with audio electronics, and for me things like EQ capability, convenience, appropriate power output and features easily trump extra dBs of SINAD in all but worst cases. YMMV I guess :)
I can understand the appeal and peace of mind of having a system comprised of high-performing components, though :)
If I stick with my option, I should be able to do some manual PEQ through the SVS app for subwoofer using a UMIK-1 and REW but up to the crossover point. If I go with an AVR, Audessy should take care of that.
Note that a lot of rooms have offending resonances well into the 100s of Hz and often up to around 200-500Hz - plus you might need more than just the 3 bands of EQ. Also, depending on the speakers you choose, you might need/want to also correct their anechoic response too.
 

raistlin65

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Initially I wanted to buy an AVR (3.1 with upgrade in future) but down the road I realized that I appreciate a better music quality over the surround features for the movies so I passed the AVR + Speakers options and started to look at the Streamer , DAC, Amp + Speakers options. [A reasonable priced AVR (e.g. Denon X-3700H) technically cover all those features but seems that AVRs do not have a good sound quality (General Audiophile opinion)

I can understand the reasoning of not being that interested in the surround features.

But a center channel can be a big plus for gaming and movies. Unless you plan on being the lone listener sitting in the sweetspot, it could be worth it to be able to add it later on even if you are not interested in spending on one now.

https://www.svsound.com/blogs/svs/why-the-center-channel-is-the-most-important-home-theater-speaker

The SB-1000 won't be powerful enough for my room size. Also it is substantially weaker than 2000 pro in lower frequencies (similar to RSL and Rythmik around 400-500 price range). I would do two 2000pro if I had the money. (It is also very hard to fit them in my room). I rather SVS over the other brands because of their app and ability of parametric EQ

Start with a single Rythmik LV12R. Should work fine in your room. And then you have the option later on of adding a 2nd as an upgrade
https://www.rythmikaudio.com/LV12F.html

The distance would be around 9 to 10 feet from the speakers and I am not listening to music very loud. Something around 85 to 90. For movies, I watch both heavy dialog and those with action explosion sounds

Since you live in an apartment, Audyssey Dynamic Eq and Dynamic Volume can be very useful in reducing the volume at night (so as not to disturb neighbors) when watching movies with a wide dynamic range.

https://hometheateracademy.com/audyssey-dynamic-eq-and-dynamic-volume/
very good point. I really don't know what is the procedure when audio down mixes from 5.1 or 7.1 to stereo or stereo.1 in a typical AVR. whether it pulls out the .1 portion and sends it out directly to the sub (Sounds like a good idea) or it mixes down everything like a noodle soup and then tries to separate the noodles from the broth and send them to the added subwoofer and if there would be any meaningful difference between the final results.

When a Denon AVR downmixes to 2.1 and speakers are set to small to run a crossover, the LFE channel will go to the sub, and the content below the crossover frequency will go to the sub.
 
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