Like @j_j said, no real controls.
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Can we trust our ears?
- Thread starter mi-fu
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That sounds like a couple of guys listening to music and switching some cables around to verify preconceived ideas....
Proper double blinding.
No. Actually I didn't believe in cable before that day. How long have I been on this forum? I'm also on here everyday. Can't deny the influence.
1) If you can see the guy after he did (or didn't) switch cables, regardless of what he tells you, it's not a blind test.
2) Any chance you reseated the headphones?
3) If cables are making frequency response variations of any significance, one of them is either unsuitable or broken.
2) Any chance you reseated the headphones?
3) If cables are making frequency response variations of any significance, one of them is either unsuitable or broken.
1,I couldn't. I was facing a different direction during the whole session.
2,The headphones were taken off each time. (positioning do make difference I know) But the fact that in the first four trials I wasn't sure about the results, it's less prominent than the cable.
3, 0.2dB difference is good enough to hear a difference. Let alone there can be phase changes etc. Also the reactive nature of the headphones shows non linearity that wasn't easily modeled. It sounds like 2db at 3-6k. But could be a lot less. I am trained listener who can eq match to headphones to 1db across frequency. And can identify difference of 0.2db at single frequency band. It's "obvious" to me but not obvious in the sense of regular music lover.
4, I wasn't implying the cables were perfectly engineered. But just random two cables in the store can make difference, there is big chance the cables on the market can make difference as well. As we don't have database of cable measurements, we are in the dark.
Wow, now you're preaching at me about what is audible. Until there's an error spectrum available, let's not even bother with that, ok?
.2dB difference can JUST BARELY be detected in a time-proximate ABX test. Barely. By trained listeners. If you want a citation, I cite me.
If the cables have enough resistance to interact with the headphones, something is wrong, either you shouldn't be using those cables, or those headphones, or something of that sort.
You need to keep the headphone position stable, one way or another.
Facing another direction may or may not be sufficient, depending on many more things that I care to go into right now.
I think you have no idea how good the human brain is at incorporating all senses even when that's not intended. Nobody, in fact, has ever shown they can AVOID that.
.2dB difference can JUST BARELY be detected in a time-proximate ABX test. Barely. By trained listeners. If you want a citation, I cite me.
If the cables have enough resistance to interact with the headphones, something is wrong, either you shouldn't be using those cables, or those headphones, or something of that sort.
You need to keep the headphone position stable, one way or another.
Facing another direction may or may not be sufficient, depending on many more things that I care to go into right now.
I think you have no idea how good the human brain is at incorporating all senses even when that's not intended. Nobody, in fact, has ever shown they can AVOID that.
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I think if you offered to bet some of these folks you could tell the difference in a properly controlled ABX test (easier, by your description) you would get some takers. Easy money! If the differences are indeed “not subtle”.
digicidal
Major Contributor
I encounter this all the time (and I assume others do as well): in a completely dark room, I can move much easier with my eyes closed than with them open. I presume because with them closed, my brain immediately gives higher priority to my other senses as well as my last visual memory of the room's layout. With them open, despite not getting any significant visual stimulus - the eyes still have priority.
Sensory noise is also a factor - despite it having little to nothing to do with audio, I find I can focus better on specific aspects of sound while sucking on a hard candy and squeezing a stress-ball. Not sure how much is real vs. imagined, but having some consistent and unobtrusive input for my other senses takes them out of the processing. Probably also why I had to doodle all the time in school... taking actual notes would cause me to fall behind the lecture - but just mindlessly drawing on my paper would allow near perfect recall later.
The human brain is truly an amazing (although often inefficient) signal processor.
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On another forum recently I was accused of once again claiming audiophiles who here differences in playback software were delusional. I replied I was proclaiming them human. Perhaps they could dispute their humanity if they wished to do so.
JohnYang1997, best I can tell what you've described is at most single blind, and very poorly blinded, and with some sources of variability interfering with results (like removing and replacing the phones). No one likes to point out such things, but until you understand how little it takes to cue in someone doing comparative listening and how easily your own bias effects you, you can't learn the truth on matters. So many think they'll know if they are tricking themselves and it isn't news. It is in fact typical. Hence the knowledge that you need good blinding if you are hearing extremely improbable differences. Yes cables could make a difference in some badly arranged situations. The answer isn't to find the holy grail of cables, the answer is to fix the poor circumstances in design of the gear which is neither difficult nor expensive to do in most cases.
JohnYang1997, best I can tell what you've described is at most single blind, and very poorly blinded, and with some sources of variability interfering with results (like removing and replacing the phones). No one likes to point out such things, but until you understand how little it takes to cue in someone doing comparative listening and how easily your own bias effects you, you can't learn the truth on matters. So many think they'll know if they are tricking themselves and it isn't news. It is in fact typical. Hence the knowledge that you need good blinding if you are hearing extremely improbable differences. Yes cables could make a difference in some badly arranged situations. The answer isn't to find the holy grail of cables, the answer is to fix the poor circumstances in design of the gear which is neither difficult nor expensive to do in most cases.
I'm skipping the part of the test itself now.
If you are thinking i am pro cabling and wants to justify expensive cables or wanting to find best cable, you are obviously mistaking. Maybe this isn't the correct thread, hence why I didn't post the full test onto here the day I did the test. What I wanted to bring up is that perhaps cable is more important than DACs, where I hear much less difference. And objective measurements should be brought up in cables to figure out how many cables are sub standard and can effect the sound in negative way. And from diyaudioheaven, there was measurements proof that there is cable that does change frequency response. And it's not by inserting tuning elements into the cable but by the cable itself.
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Okay, but it isn't hard to design a cable around that. Can you point to the diyaudioheaven measurements. If we have good measurements of FR changing we don't need listening tests. My apologies if I misunderstood your position on this. The critique of your methodology is sound however.
https://diyaudioheaven.wordpress.com/headphones/measurements/audio-quest/
Here it is. Tho it's not a proof of my finding. He only found there was difference in amplitude where I found there is tonal shift.
At any rate, I know the 5 trial size is small. I think I'll try a 20 trial test. With no interference whatsoever. (Taking off headphones isn't worse than changing cable while on head as the sound of clicking may differ from cables and it's impossible to keep same position while changing cable. And more trials means if I can still gets all correct the difference in positioning is less than the perceived difference of cables).
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But they spend lots of time discussing how moving the phones etc muddies the results. I'm down with measuring the end result of sound produced when it makes sense. Cable differences would appear to be swamped in measurement artifacts. They even say about as much. And would seem if they amount to anything to be in the direction that LCR effects would suggest.
http://www.aes-media.org/sections/pnw/pnwrecaps/2013/apr_jj/ Go here, John, and listen to the talk. Pay particular attention to slide 14.
http://www.aes-media.org/sections/pnw/ppt/jj/heyser.pptx is a link directly to the powerpoint.
http://www.aes-media.org/sections/pnw/ppt/jj/heyser.pptx is a link directly to the powerpoint.
solderdude
Grand Contributor
I have measured more cables recently (scroll to the bottom part)
At one point I accidentally moved the headphone very slightly between cable 2 and 3 and as a result could not overlay all measurements.
By the time I was processing the results I noticed this and had already packed up everything and could not be arsed to measure again.
Moving a headphone just a fraction of an inch results in measurable differences, even on a flatbed rig.
@j_j 's talks should be obligatory viewing for all ASR members.
At one point I accidentally moved the headphone very slightly between cable 2 and 3 and as a result could not overlay all measurements.
By the time I was processing the results I noticed this and had already packed up everything and could not be arsed to measure again.
Moving a headphone just a fraction of an inch results in measurable differences, even on a flatbed rig.
@j_j 's talks should be obligatory viewing for all ASR members.
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Many people think they’re immune to that. They are wrong, of course.
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