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Can we trust our ears?

Blumlein 88

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Oh goodness no. Not even slightly. You'll be lucky if some tracks come out over 3 on the impairment scale, too.
I'm less than clear on your post. Are you saying people won't hear Opus at 80 kbps or that they will?

My own listening would indicate 96 kbps gets really close to fully transparent. Going lower even to 80 kbps Opus is flat out amazing in how good it still is, but it isn't beyond hearing a difference.
 

Purpletrees

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To my own ears Opus is fully transparent at 96kbps to me even with some harder electro. But with metal, ambient, experimental its fine.
 

ahofer

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Purpletrees

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I must be the rare few who can't tell V0/320k MP3 but can with AAC and vorbis??. All my complex electro and some ambient either sound off or just artifact central but totally clean on 320k/V0 Lame 99% of the time. But at this point i rather stick with lossless since a 512GB memory card i want has 50% deal.
 

Cosmik

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I've got an example to try out:

Supposing you're looking at an airfield through a chain link fence. Is the fence affecting your perception of the aircraft? Not really... it's somewhat out of focus and you are choosing to watch the planes. You can shift your viewpoint a bit if the fence is obscuring some detail. After a few seconds you're probably not even aware of the fence.

But if someone asks you what type of chain link fence it is ('diamonds' or 'squares' for example) you can shift your focus to the fence and describe it. If the fence is taken away and another put in its place, you'll be able to describe that one too - you'll see a difference. But when you go back to observing the aircraft you'll not even see the new fence.

If no one had asked you to describe the fence you'd never have noticed it, even if it had changed from diamonds to squares. Image analysis software designed to do a FFT on the image (yes, you can do FFTs on images, too) would register a big difference.

This is an example not unlike listening to a source in a room. You are presented with two competing complex 'fields' and you can shift your attention between them mentally, and physically using movement and possibly gizmos in your ears. Implicitly you are interested in the thing you are interested in - the music - but if prompted, as in a scientific experiment, you can spot a difference that you would normally be oblivious to.

If you are shown the view of the aircraft from a fixed camera you may not be able to ignore the fence. It might be too much in focus, and you won't be able to shift your viewpoint, for example. Change the fence and you will immediately see the difference whether prompted or not. This is similar to listening to a recording of a speaker playing in a room:- the recorded room sounds much more pronounced than the reality of listening to the speaker in the room itself, even though the measurements are the same for both.
 

Willem

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For vision there is indeed focus, but for the human eye and for camera lenses. I am not aware of any physiological parallel with hearing.
 

Cosmik

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For vision there is indeed focus, but for the human eye and for camera lenses. I am not aware of any physiological parallel with hearing.
Why would the physiological aspect be important if the end result is this?
The cocktail party effect is the phenomenon of the brain's ability to focus one's auditory attention (an effect of selective attention in the brain) on a particular stimulus while filtering out a range of other stimuli, as when a partygoer can focus on a single conversation in a noisy room.[1][2][3] Listeners have the ability to both segregate different stimuli into different streams, and subsequently decide which streams are most pertinent to them.
I would point out that this is not necessarily the same as hearing your name in a recording of a crowded room because in a real room, you have extra information that separates the various sources related to direction and position - that you get from HRTF, head movements and so on.

In fact it is partly physiological. Having two ears (and the bonus of being able to move them around) gives information about the shape (e.g. radius) and direction of wavefronts. Process it with a brain and it can work just as synchronised radio telescopes are able to create a focused image from radio waves even though there is no physical 'lens'. Transducers, robot and computer could be an acoustic lens if we chose to view them that way. Or they could be the source of data for a blind deconvolution machine if viewed as such.
 

Cosmik

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Also this:
Selective auditory attention
...selective hearing is not "deafness" to a certain sound message. Rather, it is the selectivity of an individual to attend audibly to a sound message. The whole sound message is physically heard by the ear but the idea is the capacity of the mind to systematically filter out unwanted information
I suggest that the room may often represent "unwanted information" and will be filtered out by the human listener. But it will not be filtered out by your microphone and laptop, which is picking up "the whole sound". If you then modify the source's frequency response to compensate for what the laptop 'heard' the human listener will hear the compensated source. The measurements will be perfect; the sound heard by the listener will not.

Can we trust our ears to hear through the room? Probably. Can we trust our ears to assess frequency responses that are modified by acoustic reflections and delays in the same way a microphone and laptop do? No. Our hearing is brilliantly filtering it out without us even knowing it - even though audiophiles might like to lose the ability so they can finally solve those mysterious discrepancies between perceived sound and laptop display.
 
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Kal Rubinson

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For vision there is indeed focus, but for the human eye and for camera lenses. I am not aware of any physiological parallel with hearing.
Conscious attention is a dynamic central process and is of value since it permits us to use salience criteria to ignore the extraneous while attending to the useful. Otherwise, too much is coming in to permit useful attention. I used to ask my students during a lecture (1) if their shoes were loose or tight and (2) whether they were aware of that before I asked. (There were always a few who responded to the first question with a "What?" They were attending to something other than the lecture.)
 

j_j

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Conscious attention is a dynamic central process and is of value since it permits us to use salience criteria to ignore the extraneous while attending to the useful. Otherwise, too much is coming in to permit useful attention. I used to ask my students during a lecture (1) if their shoes were loose or tight and (2) whether they were aware of that before I asked. (There were always a few who responded to the first question with a "What?" They were attending to something other than the lecture.)

Yep. Conscious attention focuses attention on sensory inputs, certainly hearing among them. This is a classic that can also be demonstrated with the "reverse masking "nonsense. Play the reversed track w/o the words, maybe somebody might imagine a word or two. Show them the words, and the words are plain as day.

Lest anyone thing those words are really there, no, they aren't, they are purely the result of playing other (singing) speech backwards. Yes, a quick look at the waveforms prove this, too. The vocal track is a near-minimum-phase system, the ringing comes AFTER the glottal pulse. A quick look at the 'backwards masked speech' shows that it's not speech, it's REVERSED speech. When you listen to the unreversed speech, it's just stairway to heaven, like always.

You can do this with almost any reversed speech, if you like, imagine some words, write them down, listen for them. I don't have the track any more, but another guy at the labs, long ago, found "reversed masking" "twinkle twinkle little star" in some bit of a Mozart Opera. I regret not recalling the details.
 

j_j

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For vision there is indeed focus, but for the human eye and for camera lenses. I am not aware of any physiological parallel with hearing.

Attentional focusing in the brain is undisputed, so there you go, now you are aware of one.
 

RayDunzl

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Music?

Speech?

Speech to Music?


Ok, Hermeto can be an acquired taste.
 

JohnYang1997

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I finally have the answer. We can when we conduct blind test. I just did double blind test with my friend. Focal Stellia with stock cable and cardas cable. 5/5 correct.
 

Blumlein 88

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Music?

Speech?

Speech to Music?


Ok, Hermeto can be an acquired taste.
Is this the kind of music you used to drive @Sal1950 away from your house when he visited? Suddenly, I think I get it. Poor Sal.
 
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RayDunzl

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Is this the kind of music you used to drive Sal away from your house when he visited?


Yes, I have stuff that would drive anyone away.
 

j_j

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I finally have the answer. We can when we conduct blind test. I just did double blind test with my friend. Focal Stellia with stock cable and cardas cable. 5/5 correct.

How was this double-blinded, pray tell?

Also, do you understand that that outcome will happen 1/16th of the time. Assuming you have the first one "right", four more trials make that one in 16. If you want to talk about 5 independent trials, it's still 1/32, which is no big deal.
 
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ER4S

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128Kbps AAC is fine for me on most music why chase lossless when not everyone can splash out on memory or even tell the difference?.
 
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