Can we possibly measure the quality of DACs in active DSP speakers

[gags11]

Reading all these reviews about transparent DACs and following up with speaker reviews, it just interesting for my naive brain to know what the SINAD of say D&D or Genelec internal DACs are. Can this be done?

Some, may I say not myself, argue that your electronics don’t matter since THD is governed by the end transducer. I am very curious to see how the internal DACs in these highly-regarded speakers perform.

 

[Doodski]

We went into this discussion a fair amount of time ago. It was decided that a teardown of a active speaker, then set-up the plate amp & PCB or whatever they made so that the tester can access the PCB and then start probing the PCB with snazzy metering gear while looking for appropriate locations to tap into the circuitry is too much.

 

[gags11]

We went into this discussion a fair amount of time ago. It was decided that a teardown of a active speaker, then set-up the plate amp & PCB or whatever they made so that the tester can access the PCB and then start probing the PCB with snazzy metering gear while looking for appropriate locations to tap into the circuitry is too much.

I wouldn’t have expected it to be anything less than “too much.”

However, aren’t you curious? I think it is worth the effort. Otherwise, who cares what DAC you have, throw in some good DSP with good speakers and DACs may be a moot point if say a Genelec DAC were to have a SINAD of 90db.

 

[Doodski]

I wouldn’t have expected it to be anything less than “too much.”

However, aren’t you curious? I think it is worth the effort. Otherwise, who cares what DAC you have, throw in some good DSP with good speakers and DACs may be a moot point if say a Genelec DAC were to have a SINAD of 90db.

We have some very curious and interested peeps here at ASR that encouraged teardowns of active speakers and pushed for amp/DAC/DSP measurements. It was decided not to get into that. Teardowns don't usually happen here for most everything because of the, "Too much" factor. There are things to consider like voiding a warranty.

 

[gags11]

I do understand!
But… Considering we have science in the name of this site, as you may know it has never been easy or without cost. Science demands we do this, otherwise all the endless DAC tests may be meaningless, unless we see state-of-the-art DAC in Genelec speakers.

 

[gags11]

After all, Amir and lots of members are engineers. You guys like taking things apart snd testing. This is ASR not Stereophile

 

[Doodski]

I do understand!
But… Considering we have science in the name of this site, as you may know it has never been easy or without cost. Science demands we do this, otherwise all the endless DAC tests may be meaningless, unless we see state-of-the-art DAC in Genelec speakers.

Science is a big driver here although ASR apparently has limits on what it is doing. Perhaps you could pose the question to our fearless leader of ASR?

 

[Angsty]

Otherwise, who cares what DAC you have, throw in some good DSP with good speakers and DACs may be a moot point if say a Genelec DAC were to have a SINAD of 90db.

I think it’s a moot point. If the speaker system performs well, then I care less about the subcomponents if they are not readily upgradable.

I spend little time worrying about the wiring and crossover capacitors of well-performing passive speakers like the KEF LS50, too.

 

[gags11]

Science is a big driver here although ASR apparently has limits on what it is doing. Perhaps you could pose the question to our fearless leader of ASR?

Amir can do it!!! I’m sure there will be fearless volunteers also who will send in their speakers

 

[Doodski]

If the speaker system performs well, then I care less about the subcomponents if they are not readily upgradable.

That was a big driver in previous discussion regarding teardowns and tests at the PCB circuitry level. The system is tasked with making sound and so the tests are done as one unit and not subsections requiring a teardown, probing, maybe removing some hard-goo on the PCB and soldering on test points.

 

[gags11]

That was a big driver in previous discussion regarding teardowns and tests at the PCB circuitry level. The system is tasked with making sound and so the tests are done as one unit and not subsections requiring a teardown, probing, maybe removing some hard-goo on the PCB and soldering on test points.

This sounds a lot like excuses… can’t do it since made to sound as one unit. Reminds me of 6moon reviews.

I’m not an electrical engineer, but I’m sure some of you gurus can VERY easily tap in and measure DAC SINAD.

Fact is, there’s is a signal that comes in, goes to DSP, then DAC, then amplifier. Am I wrong?

 

[Doodski]

This sounds a lot like excuses… can’t do it since made to sound as one unit. Reminds me of 6moon reviews.

I’m not an electrical engineer, but I’m sure some of you gurus can VERY easily tap in and measure DAC SINAD.

It could be done. It would require a dedicated work bench with the full suite of test gear and full soldering capability for a assortment of PCB soldering requirements, lotsa hand tools, O-scope(s), +/- power supplies, ESD precautions, chemicals and cleaners and ima sure a bunch of other stuff will come to mind. It would take up a entire fair sized room of the house.

 

[Angsty]

It could be done. It would require a dedicated work bench with the full suite of test gear and full soldering capability for a assortment of PCB soldering requirements, lotsa hand tools, O-scope(s), +/- power supplies, ESD precautions, chemicals and cleaners and ima sure a bunch of other stuff will come to mind. It would take up a entire fair sized room of the house.

I wouldn’t volunteer my functioning speakers for that level of invasion. Most testing done here does not involve internal component analysis.

 

[Doodski]

I wouldn’t volunteer my functioning speakers for that level of invasion. Most testing done here does not involve internal component analysis.

Yes, basically to do tests and manage risk the test bench has to be setup for a complete teardown and repair of the DUT if required. It's a very different operation than testing from external connections.

 

[gags11]

It could be done. It would require a dedicated work bench with the full suite of test gear and full soldering capability for a assortment of PCB soldering requirements, lotsa hand tools, O-scope(s), +/- power supplies, ESD precautions, chemicals and cleaners and ima sure a bunch of other stuff will come to mind. It would take up a entire fair sized room of the house.

Sometimes that’s the price to pay for the curious that want to answer questions.

Look… my point is if I send a signal through minidsp SHD with Dirac, then into a 70db SINAD DAC, then to amp and a great performing speaker like Revel Salon 2, which in the end produces beautiful klippel measurements with 0.1% THD, do we have a SOTA system?

I’m just curious if these dsp active speakers are hyped up too much. SINAD of the amps in these speakers would also be interesting to know

 

[eas]

The engineers I've known generally aren't motivated by goading.

 

[Angsty]

Sometimes that’s the price to pay for the curious that want to answer questions.

Look… my point is if I send a signal through minidsp SHD with Dirac, then into a 70db SINAD DAC, then to amp and a great performing speaker like Revel Salon 2, which in the end produces beautiful klippel measurements with 0.1% THD, do we have a SOTA system?

I’m just curious if these dsp active speakers are hyped up too much.

You could always buy the speaker of your choice for analysis, ship it and give permission for the tear down. Many of the units tested here are loaners from readers.

Curiosity is encouraged but so is an understanding of the ASR business model. We donate to share information.

 

[gags11]

The engineers I've known generally aren't motivated by goading.

Sorry just learned that word. If a challenge goads you, so be it.

 

[gags11]

You could always buy the speaker of your choice for analysis, ship it and give permission for the tear down. Many of the units tested here are loaners from readers.

Curiosity is encouraged but so is an understanding of the ASR business model. We donate to share information.

Sorry, but coming from biotech, science and business can coexist, but when business takes precedence, science cannot be trusted

 

[gags11]

I’m sure many of you have published scientific papers. When you get a review and questions, do you respond to your reviewers as goaders? Really?

I am asking a valid question that needs an answer. One can say it is a challenge as Doodsky said, but to try to through jabs is… not sure you fill the rest