Can useful knowledge be gained via subjectivity?

[Killingbeans]

Personal preferences can NEVER be measured objectively. Companies make products to sell and make $$$. You need to understand your customers and know what they want and make something that suit their needs.

Absolutely true. I guess the subjective can give you knowledge in the form of personal insight.

And it can give you a statistical overview of how your product and the way you are presenting it is affecting people's feelings.

(With rigorous controls, of course, yadda, yadda.)

I'm thinking that the fact(?) that subjectivity to some degree contains objectivity, is what gets a lot of these mind-numbing discussions started.

The "subjectivists" say that the objective part of a subjective experience can be revealed by looking at the amount of different reports. More reports = more likelihood of the experience being objective.

The "objectivists" say that the objective part of a subjective experience must be isolated using controlled testing, and that any experience not subjected to those conditions will have a high risk of being defined by something non-objective.

(I'm in the latter camp, in case you were wondering)

I have the impression that this subject has been discussed on this forum several times and always the same eloquence contests.

Indeed. This poor dead horse has had way too many floggings.

My idea was to have a thread that people could simply link to when this perpetual off-topic discussion was lurking around the corner.

You have grasped the exact opposite of the simple idea that beauty is subjective, not objective. Unless, of course, we are not talking about the beauty of the night August starry sky. But, this is already too high-minded, but, apparently, YOU need it in the context of the role of sound operational amplifiers.

I haven't grasped anything. That's why I keep asking you for clarification.

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder and all that jazz. Yes. I would be a fool to contest that.

But what does beauty have to do with the audibility of op-amps?

Since the quote is from @conuss it may be useful to PM that person.
Otherwise it could look like a personal attack.

It's not my intension to get personal. But you are correct that a PM would have been a more elegant solution. I didn't think that far

What is your hunch though?

That this would evolve into yet another endless circular discussion about the subjective experience functioning as a substitute for empirical evidence.

People in ASR ONLY cares about measurements..... ITs a KNOWN FACT.

I don't. I care about keeping facts and ideas separated. I'm not the judge of enjoyment and have no reason to try to be so.

 

[escksu]

Yeah, right? How dare they use actual knowledge instead of trying to listen to the capacitor or resistor like regular people do? Extremists, every one of them!

Yes this is a perfect example... I wish pple could learn the differences between various types of resistors. Factors like tolerance, temperature coefficient.

I learn from other forums why vishay metal foil (z foil) resistors are so good but very expensive. I also learn that wirewound resisotors have inductance issue and why (there low inductance versions). There are also metal plate resiators. Etc...

 

[PierreV]

I do not seek knowledge when I listen to music, I seek pleasure.
In that quest, objectivity dominates the planning phase, subjectivity is essential to the execution phase.
YMMV of course.

 

[Holmz]

It's possible to create a centralized thread

A tangent is always intersecting orthogonal to the cente.

 

[Holmz]

…
It's not my intension to get personal. But you are correct that a PM would have been a more elegant solution. I didn't think that far
…

Do you play chess?

 

[Holmz]

I have come to learn that this is an extremely toxic place...its more of a cult populated by extremists..these folks have no interest to learn anything, they are only out to say i am right, you are wrong attitude...
…

Pl where are the balanced forums?

...
Pple post answers like all capacitors are the same, all resistors are the same..lol..

Do you have any data to show that they are not the same?

 

[pkane]

Yes this is a perfect example... I wish pple could learn the differences between various types of resistors. Factors like tolerance, temperature coefficient.

I learn from other forums why vishay metal foil (z foil) resistors are so good but very expensive. I also learn that wirewound resisotors have inductance issue and why (there low inductance versions). There are also metal plate resiators. Etc...

Good thing that audiophiles with no electronics experience figured out how to fix the mistakes made by the designers of their equipment who obviously have no understanding of basic electronics and chose the wrong components for their designs!

 

[JayGilb]

Yes this is a perfect example... I wish pple could learn the differences between various types of resistors. Factors like tolerance, temperature coefficient.

I learn from other forums why vishay metal foil (z foil) resistors are so good but very expensive. I also learn that wirewound resisotors have inductance issue and why (there low inductance versions). There are also metal plate resiators. Etc...

I use metal foil resistors when I want temperature stable parts that won't drift in value over a long time period, not because they sound better.
Look at any audio circuit and notice where the 1% vs 10% tolerant parts are used. The tight tolerance parts are often used in the differential portions of the circuit to produce high CMRR, not because they sound better.

 

[Killingbeans]

Yes this is a perfect example... I wish pple could learn the differences between various types of resistors. Factors like tolerance, temperature coefficient.

I learn from other forums why vishay metal foil (z foil) resistors are so good but very expensive. I also learn that wirewound resisotors have inductance issue and why (there low inductance versions). There are also metal plate resiators. Etc...

Electrical parameters doesn't automatically equate to sonic signatures. They just tell you where and how the component shoud be applied in order to avoid adverse effects.

Do you play chess?

Not often, and very badly

 

[solderdude]

Pple post answers like all capacitors are the same, all resistors are the same..lol..

That would be extremely stupid things to say for any extremists.

Capacitors can be:
Ceramic and there are many different types of dielectrics and insulators that have different properties.
Film type and here too there are quite different film types each with their own electrical properties.
Aluminum capacitors, polar and unipolar. Here too there are different types of electrolytics, sizes, leakage currents, ESR, voltages and a wide range of capacitances, tolerances, temp coefficients.
Tantalum and Niobium capacitors are named after the material used as the anode and the construction of the cathode.
Capacitances differ, voltage ratings differ etc. None of them are the same ans some are more suited for certain usage than others.

Resistors:
wirewound, carbon composite, carbon film, metal film.
Low inductance, bifilar wound, on ceramics, with or without wires, different tolerances, temp coefficients, sizes, power ratings, different values, max voltage ratings..
Yep.. resistors are not the same for sure and have different properties as well.

Shame on the idiots that say all resistors and capacitors are the same. They aren't.
But most of the properties are inconsequential for audio usage because of ... well audibility levels and the very small and low frequency range they are used in.

 

[dshreter]

Yes this is a perfect example... I wish pple could learn the differences between various types of resistors. Factors like tolerance, temperature coefficient.

I learn from other forums why vishay metal foil (z foil) resistors are so good but very expensive. I also learn that wirewound resisotors have inductance issue and why (there low inductance versions). There are also metal plate resiators. Etc...

This is a wildly moving target from what you were arguing in this thread. Nobody is claiming "all resistors are the same."

On the other hand, if two otherwise identical amplifiers with different resistors have the same measured performance at the output, then I would have no issue claiming that they will sound the same too.

So what is it that you're trying to claim? Because I've never come across anyone making the absurd claim that the components in a circuit don't matter.

 

[antcollinet]

People in ASR ONLY cares about measurements..... ITs a KNOWN FACT. Thats why this place is so hostile and why many pple avoided this place (thats why online members are mostly less than 200 and its the few usual pple).

You didn't actually read my post, did you? You should try engaging with facts sometime, you'll find it liberating.

 

[Robin L]

Yes this is a perfect example... I wish pple could learn the differences between various types of resistors. Factors like tolerance, temperature coefficient.

I learn from other forums why vishay metal foil (z foil) resistors are so good but very expensive. I also learn that wirewound resisotors have inductance issue and why (there low inductance versions). There are also metal plate resiators. Etc...

I've done all of that. You know what really changes the "sound" with "passive" components?

Inhaling the solder.

Of course, there are other things that go on when that stuff gets into your system.

 

[AdamG]

Oh what fun! Another one of these threads. Confusion sets in.

I am informed with great regularity, that the majority of members here. Loath Subjective subject threads. With a vengeance. They normally create the highest amount of Reports and interaction problems. Yet look at the pages of replies? This activity is a good example of why we (the Moderation Team) tolerate them. So next time you wish a certain Subjective thread be shutdown, take measure of the Community engagement and ask your self “how did we get here?”. This is why in many cases we let the thread run their course of course.

 

[AdamG]

I have come to learn that this is an extremely toxic place...its more of a cult populated by extremists..these folks have no interest to learn anything, they are only out to say i am right, you are wrong attitude...

Pple post answers like all capacitors are the same, all resistors are the same..lol..

For hating the place so much you sure post a lot…Toxic, Cult and Extremists no hyperbole in that assessment. Keep it up and you will get what you wish for.

 

[coonmanx]

Two words...

Expectation bias...

If you heard from others that X is truly better and you went out and spent your hard earned money to buy X, then almost certainly you will hear an improvement because that is what you want. Those magic cables will "open up the sound, improving both clarity and soundstage". LOL.

I don't buy it. Yes there is cheap crap that you should avoid but after that if you buy quality made stuff you will get good sound. Personally my cheap Panasonic SL-S160 with MASH DAC sounds wonderful and I wold love to put it up against some higher end CD players or DACs in a blind test. It seems that when it comes to DACs the sky is the limit when it comes to subjective claims about how great they sound. I don't buy it. Just someone trying to reinvent the wheel. But hey, it's your money so if you want to spend it and it works for you then knock yourself out...

Now granted... tubes are one area that I have never explored. That is an entire different discussion.

 

[coonmanx]

I recently went on the Bay to buy a cheap Chinese made cable that fits the headphone jack on my friend's TV and then goes into his integrated amplifier. I could have paid a lot more than the $8.83 that I spent but I am only looking for decent quality and not a pat on the back from any "audiophiles". OFC copper, looks to be of good quality so I snapped it up. Frankly it will at least look better than the cables that we originally used that we pulled out of one of the drawers in the kitchen. Will it sound any better? Probably not but who cares?

 

[Killingbeans]

Oh what fun! Another one of these threads. Confusion sets in.

I am informed with great regularity, that the majority of members here. Loath Subjective subject threads. With a vengeance. They normally create the highest amount of Reports and interaction problems. Yet look at the pages of replies? This activity is a good example of why we (the Moderation Team) tolerate them. So next time you wish a certain Subjective thread be shutdown, take measure of the Community engagement and ask your self “how did we get here?”. This is why in many cases we let the thread run their course of course.

Yeah, I kinda knew that starting this thread was a bit like tap dancing in a minefield

And just to make it clear; I feel no anger or resentment towards @conuss I simply had a hard time figuring out what he/she was trying to make clear to me, and didn't want to continue spamming a thread with off-topic discussion. His/her way of conveying a viewpoint seemed vague and convoluted to me. I'm still not certain about whether or not we simply are holding the same views and I'm failing to recognize it. English is not my first language.

@Holmz is probably right when he says that a smarter move would have been to take it to a PM, or even better, to just ignore it and focus on something else entirely. Instead I decided to start this thread and flipped a coin on what the subject would be. In hindsight I can see how that might seem like a ruthless attempt at putting words into that person's mouth. I apologize if my assumption is misplaced and @conuss does not approve of the theme of this thread.

If nothing else, I have put myself in a position where I'm forced to play the devil's advocate, and I'll just have to own it.

 

[AdamG]

Yeah, I kinda knew that starting this thread was a bit like tap dancing in a minefield

And just to make it clear; I feel no anger or resentment towards @conuss I simply had a hard time figuring out what he/she was trying to make clear to me, and didn't want to continue spamming a thread with off-topic discussion. His/her way of conveying a viewpoint seemed vague and convoluted to me. I'm still not certain about whether or not we simply are holding the same views and I'm failing to recognize it. English is not my first language.

@Holmz is probably right when he says that a smarter move would have been to take it to a PM, or even better, to just ignore it and focus on something else entirely. Instead I decided to start this thread and flipped a coin on what the subject would be. In hindsight I can see how that might seem like a ruthless attempt at putting words into that person's mouth. I apologize if my assumption is misplaced and @conuss does not approve of the theme of this thread.

If nothing else, I have put myself in a position where I'm forced to play the devil's advocate, and I'll just have to own it.

I had no intention of shutting down your thread or hampering the conversation. Making a perplexing observation. It’s a Forum, your Forum to post just about anything that pops into your head. Have at it and enjoy the Camaraderie. Why we’re all here really. Like minds and all that….

 

[Timcognito]

Seems like there are a few people measuring things. The rest of us subjectively arguing over whether things are right or valuable and that is the majority of the posts. Some do praise the measuring people and some ask questions to further their knowledge. Audio in words or graphs is like food on cooking show you can't taste it.