Can this really be true? (Setup upgrade advice)

[Birdcircles]

Hi there ASR! Long-time lurker, first time poster here. I've been working towards a major system refresh and would like to run some principles I'm working from by you all to check their veracity and to get your thoughts. Currently I'm running a Cambridge Audio CXA81 amplifier, driving a pair of Dali Oberon 1 speakers, as well as a REL Tzero MKIII subwoofer. The source is a Bluesound Node (N130). I have added rudimentary tone control via the Schiit Loki Mini. (Yeah, it's a somewhat lopsided and rather WhatHifi-coded system. We all gotta start somewhere!)

The room is a 3 x 3 m square nook in my apartment living room. It's not a closed-off space; along one side it opens into the rest of the room.

On order is a pair of KEF LS50 Metas, my first speaker upgrade since purchasing the whole setup about five years ago. My end goal is to have a complete system with proper sub integration and room correction through some form of EQ/PEQ. I had initially intended to purchase a Dirac Live license for my Node and keep the sub connected high-level. This all stemmed from the belief that my amplifier was the costliest (and best) element of this setup, and I'd do well to keep it in the system.

However, after a long time spent reading this forum and other sources, like Erin's website and YouTube channel, I have come to understand/believe the following (please correct me if I'm wrong):

• All amplifiers, when operating properly and matched with speakers that don't require more power than the amp can provide, will be audibly transparent under normal listening conditions
• As are all (properly functioning) DACs and streamers
• There is no audible difference between different forms of amplification (Class AB vs. Class D, in this case)
• Room correction, especially in a small space like mine, will have a far greater impact on the sound than any amp, DAC or streamer on its own

From these observations I have drawn the following conclusions:

• A WiiM Amp Ultra could replace my entire Node + Loki + CXA81 setup and would, functionally and with regards to raw power, exceed it
• The WiiM Amp Ultra's amplification section will not be an audible downgrade from my CXA81, nor will its DAC
• The WiiM with its EQ / RC capabilities could eclipse the current setup in potential SQ, even without the new speakers; let alone when paired with the LS50s
• Proper bass management (meaning High- and Low pass filtering, plus time alignment) is superior to REL's preferred (and in my experience, annoyingly trial-and-error based) high level connection
• The WiiM Amp Ultra is plenty powerful enough to drive the LS50 Metas to my typical listening volume of 75 - 85dB

Am I drawing the right conclusions here? Do you have any input or corrections? And perhaps most importantly: can this all really be true? It feels like it goes against so many ideas I have been subjected to in the broader audiophile community. I am still finding it hard to believe that the above setup should in practice sound very similar if not identical to an LS50 Meta-based setup with much more expensive separates. But at the same time I can only find very anecdotal 'proof' that those elements would have much of an effect on sound quality.

Thanks in advance!

 

[staticV3]

A WiiM Amp Ultra could replace my entire Node + Loki + CXA81 setup and would, functionally and with regards to raw power, exceed it

The WiiM does Sub integration and Frequency response correction, but no phase correction which you'd have with the N130 and Dirac Live.

I'm not at all sure that'd be worth the upcharge for me, but your priorities may be different.

The WiiM Amp Ultra's amplification section will not be an audible downgrade from my CXA81, nor will its DAC

That's certain.

The WiiM with its EQ / RC capabilities could eclipse the current setup in potential SQ, even without the new speakers; let alone when paired with the LS50s

W/o the Dirac upgrade for your N130, yes.

Proper bass management (meaning High- and Low pass filtering, plus time alignment) is superior to REL's preferred (and in my experience, annoyingly trial-and-error based) high level connection

Yes.

The WiiM Amp Ultra is plenty powerful enough to drive the LS50 Metas to my typical listening volume of 75 - 85dB

Easily!

 

[delta76]

• All amplifiers, when operating properly and matched with speakers that don't require more power than the amp can provide, will be audibly transparent under normal listening conditions => not true, only amps with low enough noise and distortion. However many amp can exceed that threshold
• As are all (properly functioning) DACs and streamers => same as above. Streamers in strict sense are bit perfect so they do not make a difference
• There is no audible difference between different forms of amplification (Class AB vs. Class D, in this case) => true
• Room correction, especially in a small space like mine, will have a far greater impact on the sound than any amp, DAC or streamer on its own => true. But not only room correction, room treatment and speaker placement are important too

• A WiiM Amp Ultra could replace my entire Node + Loki + CXA81 setup and would, functionally and with regards to raw power, exceed it
• The WiiM Amp Ultra's amplification section will not be an audible downgrade from my CXA81, nor will its DAC
• The WiiM with its EQ / RC capabilities could eclipse the current setup in potential SQ, even without the new speakers; let alone when paired with the LS50s
• Proper bass management (meaning High- and Low pass filtering, plus time alignment) is superior to REL's preferred (and in my experience, annoyingly trial-and-error based) high level connection
• The WiiM Amp Ultra is plenty powerful enough to drive the LS50 Metas to my typical listening volume of 75 - 85dB

Yes to all

 

[Birdcircles]

• All amplifiers, when operating properly and matched with speakers that don't require more power than the amp can provide, will be audibly transparent under normal listening conditions => not true, only amps with low enough noise and distortion. However many amp can exceed that threshold
• As are all (properly functioning) DACs and streamers => same as above. Streamers in strict sense are bit perfect so they do not make a difference
• There is no audible difference between different forms of amplification (Class AB vs. Class D, in this case) => true
• Room correction, especially in a small space like mine, will have a far greater impact on the sound than any amp, DAC or streamer on its own => true. But not only room correction, room treatment and speaker placement are important too

• A WiiM Amp Ultra could replace my entire Node + Loki + CXA81 setup and would, functionally and with regards to raw power, exceed it
• The WiiM Amp Ultra's amplification section will not be an audible downgrade from my CXA81, nor will its DAC
• The WiiM with its EQ / RC capabilities could eclipse the current setup in potential SQ, even without the new speakers; let alone when paired with the LS50s
• Proper bass management (meaning High- and Low pass filtering, plus time alignment) is superior to REL's preferred (and in my experience, annoyingly trial-and-error based) high level connection
• The WiiM Amp Ultra is plenty powerful enough to drive the LS50 Metas to my typical listening volume of 75 - 85dB

Yes to all

Thanks for the clarifications! Based on Amir's review of the WiiM Amp Ultra, it comfortably meets the threshold for both amplifier and DAC performance in terms of noise and distortion, so that's a relief.

On room treatment and speaker placement: I'm hoping to avoid treatment, but I do have some flexibility with positioning. I can get the speakers about 50–60 cm (20"–24") from the front wall, and equidistant from the side walls. The sub is a different story, it pretty much needs to live either behind or to the side of the left speaker, but I'm hoping that the easier integration via the WiiM can help me out there.

 

[Birdcircles]

The WiiM does Sub integration and Frequency response correction, but no phase correction which you'd have with the N130 and Dirac Live.

I'm not at all sure that'd be worth the upcharge for me, but your priorities may be different.


That's certain.


W/o the Dirac upgrade for your N130, yes.


Yes.


Easily!

Thanks for your input! I hadn't fully considered the lack of phase correction for the sub as a potential downside of the WiiM setup vs. staying with Bluesound. The REL only has binary phase controls (0 - 180). The sub will live very close to the left speaker in the setup. How important would you say phase alignment is for this setup? (If you can make that assessment with the info provided.)

 

[delta76]

Thanks for the clarifications! Based on Amir's review of the WiiM Amp Ultra, it comfortably meets the threshold for both amplifier and DAC performance in terms of noise and distortion, so that's a relief.

On room treatment and speaker placement: I'm hoping to avoid treatment, but I do have some flexibility with positioning. I can get the speakers about 50–60 cm (20"–24") from the front wall, and equidistant from the side walls. The sub is a different story, it pretty much needs to live either behind or to the side of the left speaker, but I'm hoping that the easier integration via the WiiM can help me out there.

room treatment can be tricky (And sometimes expensive, or even impossible), but speaker placement can be done quite easily, try place it higher/lower (the rule of thumb is the treble should be at same high as your ear), toe in/toe out, and as you said, most speakers will perform better away from a wall

 

[DrTom]

It really is amazing how many questions can now be answered with 'just buy a Wiim'. Not that I have any particular brand loyalty, but the feature set for the money is actually bonkers.

 

[delta76]

It really is amazing how many questions can now be answered with 'just buy a Wiim'. Not that I have any particular brand loyalty, but the feature set for the money is actually bonkers.

yes!
Wiim ultra amp is a winner. a competent all-in-one package with reasonable price. In a way, drug gateway for people who want to get into Hifi (and for most people, end game too)

 

[kemmler3D]

it goes against so many ideas I have been subjected to in the broader audiophile community

This might sound a bit crazy, but it's true - since the late 70s or so, a significant chunk of the entire consumer audio industry has aligned on a narrative that ignores, downplays, and even denies "placebo effect" as a possible explanation for heard differences between pieces of gear that rationally should not sound different in practice, and usually don't under blind testing.

In reality most people will experience placebo effect most of the time in sighted comparisons, so this narrative enables brands to keep selling amps, fancy cables, fancy DACs, and beyond.

Shamefully, even most magazines and reviewers got on board with this narrative rather than stand up for blind testing and objective measurements. The narrative spread.

As a result most people you talk to about hi-fi are effectively (unknowingly) engaged in magical thinking about sound quality.

They come up with all sorts of bogus rationalisations for why they won't just subject something to a blind test. Granted it's a pain in the butt for consumers, but take a step back and you'll realize it makes zero sense that brands don't do them either. You mean to tell me you sell amps for $20k that sound wonderful and totally different from the competition, but you won't sit 10 or even 3 people in front of a system behind a curtain to prove it? And none of your competitors will either? For decades now? Sure...

From the other end, these genius electrical engineers create amps with specific sonic characteristics, but they can't show us the sonic characteristics on an oscilloscope or any other electronic measurement, so presumably they don't actually know why their amp sounds so special? So which is it? Are they genius designers who know exactly how to dial in the sound, or are they randomly tinkering until it sounds nice, and don't even know how to check their work? Hmmm...

 

[delta76]

This might sound a bit crazy, but it's true - since the late 70s or so, a significant chunk of the entire consumer audio industry has aligned on a narrative that ignores, downplays, and even denies "placebo effect" as a possible explanation for heard differences between pieces of gear that rationally should not sound different in practice, and usually don't under blind testing.

In reality most people will experience placebo effect most of the time in sighted comparisons, so this narrative enables brands to keep selling amps, fancy cables, fancy DACs, and beyond.

Shamefully, even most magazines and reviewers got on board with this narrative rather than stand up for blind testing and objective measurements. The narrative spread.

As a result most people you talk to about hi-fi are effectively (unknowingly) engaged in magical thinking about sound quality.

They come up with all sorts of bogus rationalisations for why they won't just subject something to a blind test. Granted it's a pain in the butt for consumers, but take a step back and you'll realize it makes zero sense that brands don't do them either. You mean to tell me you sell amps for $20k that sound wonderful and totally different from the competition, but you won't sit 10 or even 3 people in front of a system behind a curtain to prove it? And none of your competitors will either? For decades now? Sure...

From the other end, these genius electrical engineers create amps with specific sonic characteristics, but they can't show us the sonic characteristics on an oscilloscope or any other electronic measurement, so presumably they don't actually know why their amp sounds so special? So which is it? Are they genius designers who know exactly how to dial in the sound, or are they randomly tinkering until it sounds nice, and don't even know how to check their work? Hmmm...

and to extend on that, this is one of the thing that get exploited to the extreme.
You can be sure the margin on things like luxury cables, DAC, AMP are massive. You can make a super fancy looking interconnect for $100, sell it to retailer for $1000 who would sell them to customers for $10000 (those are made up numbers, but you get the idea). Whether the ones making and selling those things believe in the "difference" or not, they have a massive incentive to spread the information. All they need is gullible people who believe in the difference, bigger the chamber bigger the market. And it also creates a FOMO that, if I have this $20k cable, it sounds great, but maybe this $30k cable will sound difference.
The spiral of spending ...

when members of a forum tell you to spend less, believe them, because they have no incentive to make money out of you

 

[andrewwnbanks]

Go to

Hi there ASR! Long-time lurker, first time poster here. I've been working towards a major system refresh and would like to run some principles I'm working from by you all to check their veracity and to get your thoughts. Currently I'm running a Cambridge Audio CXA81 amplifier, driving a pair of Dali Oberon 1 speakers, as well as a REL Tzero MKIII subwoofer. The source is a Bluesound Node (N130). I have added rudimentary tone control via the Schiit Loki Mini. (Yeah, it's a somewhat lopsided and rather WhatHifi-coded system. We all gotta start somewhere!)

The room is a 3 x 3 m square nook in my apartment living room. It's not a closed-off space; along one side it opens into the rest of the room.

On order is a pair of KEF LS50 Metas, my first speaker upgrade since purchasing the whole setup about five years ago. My end goal is to have a complete system with proper sub integration and room correction through some form of EQ/PEQ. I had initially intended to purchase a Dirac Live license for my Node and keep the sub connected high-level. This all stemmed from the belief that my amplifier was the costliest (and best) element of this setup, and I'd do well to keep it in the system.

However, after a long time spent reading this forum and other sources, like Erin's website and YouTube channel, I have come to understand/believe the following (please correct me if I'm wrong):

• All amplifiers, when operating properly and matched with speakers that don't require more power than the amp can provide, will be audibly transparent under normal listening conditions
• As are all (properly functioning) DACs and streamers
• There is no audible difference between different forms of amplification (Class AB vs. Class D, in this case)
• Room correction, especially in a small space like mine, will have a far greater impact on the sound than any amp, DAC or streamer on its own

From these observations I have drawn the following conclusions:

• A WiiM Amp Ultra could replace my entire Node + Loki + CXA81 setup and would, functionally and with regards to raw power, exceed it
• The WiiM Amp Ultra's amplification section will not be an audible downgrade from my CXA81, nor will its DAC
• The WiiM with its EQ / RC capabilities could eclipse the current setup in potential SQ, even without the new speakers; let alone when paired with the LS50s
• Proper bass management (meaning High- and Low pass filtering, plus time alignment) is superior to REL's preferred (and in my experience, annoyingly trial-and-error based) high level connection
• The WiiM Amp Ultra is plenty powerful enough to drive the LS50 Metas to my typical listening volume of 75 - 85dB

Am I drawing the right conclusions here? Do you have any input or corrections? And perhaps most importantly: can this all really be true? It feels like it goes against so many ideas I have been subjected to in the broader audiophile community. I am still finding it hard to believe that the above setup should in practice sound very similar if not identical to an LS50 Meta-based setup with much more expensive separates. But at the same time I can only find very anecdotal 'proof' that those elements would have much of an effect on sound quality.

Thanks in advance!

Go to a dealer and listen to different equipment. Even at the same price range there are vast differences between different units. Don’t buy anything online based solely on someone else’s reviews, technical or otherwise (especially where the reviewer judges a product on numbers alone) and to the extent possible, try and listen to familiar music with other components you are familiar with.

Proper Hifi dealers who allow people to listen patiently still exist even in this online sales environment we all live in. Whether you are spending $300 or $30000, try to hear it first. good luck!

 

[Mike_Trueman]

Your listening room is 3mx3m? Maybe it is better to keep your current system and upgrade to some nice AMP/DAC headphone combo in such a small room?

 

[DrTom]

Your listening room is 3mx3m? Maybe it is better to keep your current system and upgrade to some nice AMP/DAC headphone combo in such a small room?

For goodness sake.

This is exactly the kind of situation where adding PEQ and room correction could make a decent difference, OP's plan is sound.

 

[dtaylo1066]

I have the WiiM ultra and run it into older DIY Hypex UCD180 amps at 180 watts per channel. I see no reason to purchase another streamer or separate DAC.

Given you will be running the Metas with a sub, your power needs are not that great and the WiiM Amp Ultra has plenty of power. I find the WiiM app to be excellent, and the PEQ capabilitie are quite good, either customized or the preset configurations. The room function seems to me a hit or miss and not an equal of Dirac.

Some on the more subjective side will say amps have a "sound," or DACs too. That is not the gerneral position of folks on this Forum. I wold be shocked if you found the WiiM Amp Ulta lacking, expecially for the price.

The Eversolo Play would be the main competition at a slightly higher price point.