Can the /excessiveness/ of the 8361A be better utilised?

[8361AM]

I understand that the 8361A has an abundance power that many or most of its users may benefit from putting to better use. In other words, the 8361A is in at least one regard, excessive. I'm interested in exploring this to our potential collective benefit.

The first suggestion I have, is that such excessiveness could be used to provide improved LFE. I understand that all speakers can extend extremely low but at the cost of SPL (with manufacturers usually prioritising SPL over LFE). Thus, is there a way to EQ or otherwise the 8361A so that it performs more like the 8260A, for example, which it seems to have a lot in common with, so that under the same conditions it reaches around 20hz at -6dB rather than 30hz as standard (at the cost of SPL but whilst also maintaining a desirable frequency response)?

The second suggestion I have, is that such excessiveness could perhaps be used to overcome nulls, at least in some instances. I feel somewhat less confident here because I have come across comments suggesting that boosting a null is pointless whereas others suggest that this can be worthwhile but that doing so is not recommended because it will stress the amp. However, if the amp has an abundance of power, which seems to be the case in many or most cases with the 8361A, perhaps this is not so much of an issue and so is worth exploring, at least in some instances.

I hope that there are other examples (aside from simply playing loud), and please share if so.

It seems like some others here, I purchased the 8361A because I wanted to avoid adding a sub, if possible (e.g., as one might be with the 8351B). Yes, one or more subs can improve LFE and at times compensate for nulls, but they add complication and it seems some of us wish to avoid this for various reasons. Following on from this, one might argue that the 8361A was a poor choice and perhaps another speaker such as the D&D 8C would have been better given its shared simplicity but improved LFE as standard. This may be a good argument but I'm less interested in it in contrast to improving what I have, should there be scope for this.

If anyone has any insights into how greater value may be extracted from the 8361A as per the above, I'd be grateful to explore.

 

[Tovarich007]

I don't understand well what you mean by "excessiveness", nor what you propose for suppressing or limiting this ?
Do you mean the 8361 doesn't go low enough for your tastes or needs ? That's not an excess so to speak, and I hope you bought such expensive speakers after carefully studying their specs and other tests on ASR or elsewhere.
The older discontinued 8260 is a very good speaker too, but I'm not sure it goes usefully as low as 20 hz. They go a little lower than the new 8261 if my memory serves me well, but with less overall capability and SPL, as you mentioned it. All in all, the 8361 is a little better and I can't see how you could improve their bass response without altering another criteria ?

I heard several times the 8361, with or without the W371, and found them pretty impressive in the bass even without the W371, with very good pitch, definition and slam when needed, quite enough for most uses IMHO.

The D&D 8C goes lower, at an extra cost. Though they seem to be pretty good speakers, probably they have by design a little less coherence in their spatial abilities than the 8361, they are a 2 way speaker, not a 3 way coaxial point source.
That's a matter of choice and where you put your priority.

 

[8361AM]

I don't understand well what you mean by "excessiveness", nor what you propose fr suppressing or limiting this ?
Do you mean the 8361 doesn't go low enough for your tastes or needs ? That's not an excess so to speak, and I hope you bought such expensive speakers after carefully studying their specs and other tests on ASR or elsewhere.
The older discontinued 8260 is a very good speaker too, but I'm not sure it goes as low as 20 hz. They go a little lower than the new 8261, but with less overall capability and SPL, as you mentioned it. All in all, the 8361 is slightly better and I can't see how you could improve their bass response without altering another criteria ?

I heard several times the 8361, with or without the W371, and found them pretty impressive in the bass even without the W371, with very good pitch, definition and slam when needed, quite enough for most uses IMHO.

The D&D 8C goes lower, at an extra cost. Though they seem to be pretty good speakers, probably they have by design a little less coherence in their spatial abilities than the 8361, they are a 2 way speaker, not a 3 way coaxial point source.
That's a matter of choice and where you put your priority.

Many thanks for encouraging me to clarify my thinking.

Re: excessiveness, I base this on my experience as well as the kinds of comments that similarly more or less state:

"these speakers go louder than I would ever want to listen to without damaging my hearing..."

in contrast to:

"these speakers clip as soon as things start to get good..."

Based on Amir's review of the 8361A and 8351B, which seem mostly supported by the experience of others here, I suggest that my first 'quote' describes the 8361A and my second, the 8351B (if we solely focus on the "Ones"). If you are prepared to accept this, excessiveness in this instance has been defined in terms of a speaker going louder than some individuals want to listen to and then some. Based on my experience and comments from others, this is what seems to set the 8361A apart from the 8351B and below. Again, perhaps a better speaker should have been selected (e.g., D&D 8C), but for those of us who already have the 8361A but want to stick with it and get more from it, I'm interested in exploring how we can get more of what is more important to us (e.g., greater LFE and ability to address nulls, if possible) at the cost of what is less important to us (SPL).

I agree the 8361A's are impressive. I'm simply looking to explore how they can be made even more impressive.

 

[EAXAE]

The first suggestion I have, is that such excessiveness could be used to provide improved LFE.

Don't see any obstacles, except the LF response of 8361 drops like a rock. One has to sacrifice about 25 dB of headroom to get a flat 20-20000 in anechoic room. Of course in a real room the loss won't be so significant.

The second suggestion I have, is that such excessiveness could perhaps be used to overcome nulls, at least in some instances.

You can't fill a null with increased energy in a specific region, because the extra energy will cancel itself. The classic treatment are tinkering with a placement, acoustic treatment or multiple subs.

 

[unpluggged]

Many thanks for encouraging me to clarify my thinking.

Re: excessiveness, I base this on my experience as well as the kinds of comments that similarly more or less state:

"these speakers go louder than I would ever want to listen to without damaging my hearing..."

in contrast to:

"these speakers clip as soon as things start to get good..."

Based on Amir's review of the 8361A and 8351B, which seem mostly supported by the experience of others here, I suggest that my first 'quote' describes the 8361A and my second, the 8351B (if we solely focus on the "Ones"). If you are prepared to accept this, excessiveness in this instance has been defined in terms of a speaker going louder than some individuals want to listen to and then some. Based on my experience and comments from others, this is what seems to set the 8361A apart from the 8351B and below. Again, perhaps a better speaker should have been selected (e.g., D&D 8C), but for those of us who already have the 8361A but want to stick with it and get more from it, I'm interested in exploring how we can get more of what is more important to us (e.g., greater LFE and ability to address nulls, if possible) at the cost of what is less important to us (SPL).

I agree the 8361A's are impressive. I'm simply looking to explore how they can be made even more impressive.

So you mean to trade SPL for LFE extension. It could be done if the DSP in the speaker provided for such a setting (since I'm not familiar with all the nuances when it comes to Genelec The Ones' features, I don't know if there is such an option, but I presume there isn't). For instance, on HEDD monitors and subs there is a backplate setting that is called just like that — "LFE", that extends the low-end response a bit while limiting the maximum SPL. It works pretty well.

The problem is that DSP-controlled monitors have very aggressive high-pass filters, as @EAXAE said, so there might not be an easy way to EQ them externally.

 

[Halbknapp]

You can't boost the response in a room mode null but you can very well boost the response in the area around the null where a partial cancelling occurs. This will make Bass a bit better at the cost of headroom, just what you want. Even genelec does that on their subs (they don't boost into the null but lower everything around that and then lower volume of main speakers to fit the sub. But that's actually the same as just boosting I to the gaps but with different gain structure.

 

[dshreter]

What are you listening to? Are you even sure there is 20 - 30 Hz spectrum you are missing in your content?

 

[Pearljam5000]

Excessive power is an oxymoron in audio

 

[Sancus]

If you have 8361As then presumably you've run GLM and you have measurements of each channel at the listening position(take a screenshot). If you posted them you would get better responses and more actionable advice.

 

[AudioJester]

I have not felt the need to add a sub to my 8361a - i have 6 subs in the house lol.
I do use a bit of bass boost similar to Amir in his review.
My main issue is room related 100-250Hz. GLM does a good job, but I wish the W371 were cheaper.

 

[Tovarich007]

On the first quote : "these speakers go louder than I would ever want to listen to without damaging my hearing...", Well, that's quite easy to fix, just set the volume lower while listening.
The 8361 can play pretty loud (118 dB max SPL for one unit, probably measured in anechoic condition -not precised on their website, and no distorsion rate at this level indicated).
But it all depends on the listener to set the output level as desired, just like any other speaker ; they can also play quite gently with a very good tonal balance.

There is no bass boost EQ on The Ones, but an efficient calibration system (SAM) and you can do personal adjustments after using the automatic calibration. But I don't suggest you to boost the extreme bass much, it would increase distorsion and probably excite more some room modes.

Anyway they can go as low as 30Hz (minus 6 dB) for one unit, not including room bass increase. That's very low for most musical contents, depending on the rom size. You didn't give us the dimensions of your room, which is a very important paremeter.

 

[holdingpants01]

that's actually the way Genelec recommends setting up all of their monitors, but instead of boosting the low with EQ you should put them as close to the wall as possible to get the reinforced low end and then GLM flattens out the peaks, so you gain a lot of headroom this way. When I did it with their subs which I used in the corners I got 15dB or so headroom at 20-30Hz for free and all the dips were above the reference level

 

[8361AM]

Many thanks for all your feedback thus far.

I'd be grateful to focus on the question rather than my personal situation for the time being because of its potential relevance to others who may not have the same room dimensions or tastes (but more than happy to address them later).

Three observations motivated this post:

(a) the 8361A has an excess of SPL for many users
(b) SPL can be traded for LFE
(c) Some users are happy to trade SPL for LFE

If anyone strongly disagrees with the above, please explain why.

Assuming there is agreement, I sense it'd be useful to contrast the 8260A and 8361A:

(a) the 8260A has a frequency response of 29Hz-20 kHz (± 1 dB) whereas the 8361A has a frequency response of 36Hz-20 kHz (± 1.5 dB)
(b) the 8260A has a 150W bass amplifier and short term max SPL of ≥113 dB whereas the 8361A has a 700W bass amplifier and short term max SPL of ≥118 dB.

In summary, the 8260A extends lower than the 8361A but at the cost of SPL.

Whilst I can't speak for all 8361A owners, I'd be surprised if many of us would turn down an opportunity for our speakers to perform a little more like the 8260A in terms of LFE assuming that distortion does not enter the equation and SPL is sufficient. This seems superior to simply adding a shelving filter because a flat frequency response is maintained but with greater LFE (e.g., 29Hz rather than 36Hz at ± 1.5 dB). What I'm less sure about it how. How can we determine what filters to apply and how should this be implemented (e.g., via a custom GLM speaker profile or perhaps another application such as EqualizerAPO)?

PS. 8260A and 8361A frequency response graphs attached.

 

[Tovarich007]

The term "excessiveness" is unapropriate. There is no absolute excess in SPL max. You can play at low level if you want with a well designed and tonally accurate speaker which can play loud. It just gives you more dynamic abilities, but the listening level setting is up to you and to each of us.

That's not such a big difference in bass extension in real world between the old and the new model. For coherence, slam, bass definition, 8361 is a bit better overall than 8260, the coax medium/tweeter has been improved in the 8341, 8361 and 8361. Their amps have better efficiency, lower current expense. IMHO, these subtle but efficient improvements are probably more important than a few herz less in deep bass.

BTW, if you prefer, one can sometimes find second hand 8260s in good condition for much less money than brand new 8361s. 8260 are always very good yet.
Considering my modest income, I'd be satisfied if one day I could go for such a deal.

 

[8361AM]

You can't boost the response in a room mode null but you can very well boost the response in the area around the null where a partial cancelling occurs. This will make Bass a bit better at the cost of headroom, just what you want. Even genelec does that on their subs (they don't boost into the null but lower everything around that and then lower volume of main speakers to fit the sub. But that's actually the same as just boosting I to the gaps but with different gain structure.

Thanks for this.

I'm not sure I understand completely but keen to.

In terms of boosting response around the area, do you mean that you'd add a filter notch that looks like a bigger version of the null (i.e., wider and perhaps also taller)?

In terms of lowering things, is the idea that you'd leave the null but then bring everything down either side of it until its lowest point (so the null effectively disappears but if the null was, for example, -6dB at its lowest point, the overall volume would be -6dB lower? This make most sense to me but I'm still learning about these things...

Unsure if I've explained things clearly. If not, happy to make a drawing to show what I mean.

 

[8361AM]

The term "excessiveness" is unapropriate. There is no absolute excess in SPL max. You can play at low level if you want with a well designed and tonally accurate speaker which can play loud. It just gives you more dynamic abilities, but the listening level setting is up to you and to each of us.

That's not such a big difference in bass extension in real world between the old and the new model. For coherence, slam, bass definition, 8361 is a bit better overall than 8260, the coax medium/tweeter has been improved in the 8341, 8361 and 8361. Their amps have better efficiency, lower current expense. IMHO, these subtle but efficient improvements are probably more important than a few herz less in deep bass.

BTW, if you prefer, one can sometimes find second hand 8260s in good condition for much less money than brand new 8361s. 8260 are always very good yet.
Considering my modest income, I'd be satisfied if one day I could go for such a deal.

I did not mean to suggest the 8361A is excessive in terms of simply having too much SPL. Rather that many users appear to never tap into the full SPL potential of the 8361A (as appears to be the case with the 8351B and below) and so there is an excess of SPL that could perhaps be put to better use. If some users would prefer additional LFE but this is not available to them because SPL was prioritised over LFE, then in this case I would consider the SPL excessive because its presence came at the cost of something more desirable to some users. All this said, I appreciate that I could have been clearer and so thanks for an opportunity to clarify.

To be clear, I think the 8361A is fabulous and I prefer it to the 8260A.

I'm not understanding some of the resistance to my question and so perhaps I'm missing something? It seems an interesting question to ask and one that could bring benefits to owners interested in greater LFE... I agree with what you shared about the advantages of the 8361A over the 8260A. I'm simply asking how one might go about improving the speaker's LFE in a manner that I understand to be superior to a bass boost shelving filter.

 

[MAB]

I too am confused by your use of the term excessive.
Yes, you can EQ the bass, either with GLM or with external EQ. Most speakers can be transformed for deeper bass at the expense of dramatically reduced SPL and higher distortion. It's a ported design, with the port resonance at 30Hz, below which the woofer will rapidly increase excursion and distortion, like this simulation of a ported speaker that is hacked to somewhat align with the 8361:

As others have pointed out, Genelec has limiters and high pass filter to keep the speaker operating in it's passband, so not likely much gain. But if you try it you should measure and post results, it's really easy to explore this and report back. It's the point of the forum.

Regarding EQing nulls... Nulls are cause by cancellation, so adding more energy causes greater cancelation. The cancellation isn't perfect, so yes it can be overcome with EQ but it takes speaker damaging power (not amp), and the result doesn't sound very good because you amplify the nonlinear part of the resonance while the linear part still gets cancelled.

Also, mains that go much below 30Hz are room-mode challenged, and need subs distributed to counteract the bass of the mains exciting room modes. So even if you are 100% successful in getting deeper bass response, you would increase the likelihood of exciting room modes even more excessively. And these will excite room modes with no additional bass extension. Have you measured your in-room response? Do you know your room's primary modes? Have you made an effort to get deeper and/or better bass by measuring and speaker placement? This is likely a much more useful way to get bass both deep and (more importantly) smooth.

But try your plan. And measure. And be somewhat careful, you are taking a great design and pushing it outside of it's performance envelope.

 

[8361AM]

I'm deeply grateful for the time you took to write this (as well as to other responders). Thank you.

I too am confused by your use of the term excessive.

Point taken and so based on this and prior feedback, I suggest I refine my initial question to:

How could the 8361A be EQ'd to provide an improved experience for users wishing to trade SPL for greater access to the sub-36Hz range?

Happy to refine further, if necessary (and, upon agreement, for the title to be updated, if possible).

I understand there to be at least three means for providing greater access to the sub-36Hz range:

(a) EQing to boost bass at the cost of a flat response (e.g., setting a 2dB shelving filter at 100Hz using GLM's SCP)
(b) EQing to boost bass in line with a flat response (e.g., perhaps setting multiple filters...)
(c) Some combination of (a) and (b)

I've attached a sketch image showing (a) and (b). However, since we already know how to do (a) (e.g., via GLM's Sound Character Profiler), the purpose of this thread is to explore (b).

Most speakers can be transformed for deeper bass at the expense of dramatically reduced SPL and higher distortion.

This speaks to why I selected the 8361A and compared it with the 8260A. Both the 8361A and 8260A are ported speakers and share similar cabinets. However, the 8361A is substantially more powerful whereas the 8260A offers greater access to the sub-36Hz range. Given such similarities in combination with the 8361A having substantially more power than the 8260A, the 8361A appears well placed to provide greater access to the sub-36Hz range than standard. This said, perhaps some design choice actually makes the 8361A less suitable; for example, the racetrack drivers. I know that what I have in mind is not risk free, but the above points seem to suggest hope for a good outcome. Is this a fair comment?

It's a ported design, with the port resonance at 30Hz, below which the woofer will rapidly increase excursion and distortion...

I hadn't thought about excursion, thank you. It seems that I at least need to be cautious of:

(a) insufficient power being delivered to the driver (causing distortion)
(b) more power being delivered to the driver than the driver can handle (also causing distortion but further potentially damaging the driver)

I understand that the 8361A offers protection from (a) but I'm unclear about (b). Might someone know?

I further understand that I need specialist equipment to measure excursion and distortion. May I ask if there's a more accessible means of determining whether either are likely to be an issue. For example, if after EQing I can turn the speakers up much louder than I'd want to when playing the most demanding content I will listen to and there is no audible distortion or clipping, would this be a reasonable indication of an appropriate EQ setting?

But if you try it you should measure and post results, it's really easy to explore this and report back. It's the point of the forum.

Thank you and I'll be sure to share what I find.

Regarding EQing nulls... Nulls are cause by cancellation, so adding more energy causes greater cancelation. The cancellation isn't perfect, so yes it can be overcome with EQ but it takes speaker damaging power (not amp), and the result doesn't sound very good because you amplify the nonlinear part of the resonance while the linear part still gets cancelled.

Also, mains that go much below 30Hz are room-mode challenged, and need subs distributed to counteract the bass of the mains exciting room modes. So even if you are 100% successful in getting deeper bass response, you would increase the likelihood of exciting room modes even more excessively. And these will excite room modes with no additional bass extension. Have you measured your in-room response? Do you know your room's primary modes? Have you made an effort to get deeper and/or better bass by measuring and speaker placement? This is likely a much more useful way to get bass both deep and (more importantly) smooth.

Many thanks and I think it best to park nulls for the time being. I suggested it because it seemed to be another example of how SPL could be traded for something more valuable to some of us. I'd certainly be interested in other potential examples, but improving LFE seems best to focus on for now.

In terms of next steps, I'll have a think about the method. Perhaps I could post it up here for feedback.

Many thanks for everyone's help...

 

[8361AM]

The missing attachment...

 

[Tovarich007]

@8361AM AM : You know, this drawing doesn't tell much, we have understood your questions now. There is absolutely no reticence among us to answer them, and IMO you've got a lot of answers yet from each of us.

So yes, you can get a little more low bass if that's what you want, but it will have drawbacks :
- of course less SPL max (but this ins't à problem for you, two 8361 in a domestic room can play very loud, even if you sacrifice a few dBs for a little more bass) ;
- an increase of distorsion (not necessarily very audible at low frequencies such as 30 hz or below) and maybe less pitch and definition below 50/60 hz about.
Anyway, at these frequencies the room is probably the most important factor of overall quality...

By design and construction, any speaker can't go much lower than its specs without sacrifying other criterias, more or less.
It's up to you to choose your adequate speaker and your listening priorities, everything in this world is a matter of compromise.

Don't get too focused on a few Hzs in the low bass ; for 90 % of music, it doesn't matter.