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Can speaker's transient response be improved with a better amplifier?

igufi

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tldr; assumed good transient response was out of reach for me but my neighbour proved me wrong. Not sure if I need to upgrade my speakers or get a better amp.

Strong clang of a piano, distinctive snap of a guitar string and the sharp edge of a snare drum - I've heard those in expensive setup at my local hifi shops and shows but never at home. I had given up in the dream of having similar clear and distinct sound in my living room, assuming that they can only be created in ideal environments with acoustic treatments and exotic gear available for unattainable amounts of capital.

But, then I had a chance to listen to my new next door neighbour's system[1], and to my surprise all those features were clearly on display - in a room identical to mine and with no acoustic treatments to speak of. I wanted to understand what contributed to that sound, and my neighbour was kind enough to loan his speakers (Kef R3) to be hooked up to my setup[2]. After getting everything hooked up, I was disappointed to hear the same soft sound as I had with my own speakers. And now I've been trying to hunt down the culprit that is sucking away to the transients from my system.

What I've tried so far:
- replaced pre-amp and amp with a loaned Yamaha integrated (R-N803D)
- used different audio sources (to compare DACs): Yamaha's USB input, OPPO 105D

DACs made no discernible difference but replacing the pre and power amp with the integrated amp brought some of the transient response back to the KEFs but gave no improvement to my own speakers. I still need to try adding my sub back via the Yamaha but after that I'm out of ideas.

Is it possible that the amplifier is not up to the task and the spikes caused by the transients get "rounded up"? I could try and get something like the Audiophonics LPA-S400ET or IOM 500 Stereo to drive the main channels. Otherwise it looks like I have to replace both the amps and the speakers to get the improvements I'm looking for. :-/

[1] Denon X1300W, Kef R3, and SVS or Monolith sub
[2] Linn Klimax DS dac, Linn Akurate Kontrol pre-amp, Linn AV5125 amp, Linn Akurate 242 speakers, Elac 2070 subwoofer
 
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ZolaIII

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How are you feeding the Yamaha? Try with remote - options - volume trim set to -6 on input source (as it's per each).
What exactly do you want to achieve? KEF's are pretty north of what I appreciate regarding time domain and not a good pair for a Yamaha AB class amp deeping to 3 Ohm's, it goes best with a modern one's with great input tolerance on lo resistance loads (G-E-H class digital).
 

HarmonicTHD

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No, not with half way decently engineered modern amps. See also Damping Factor, Slew Rate and Amplifier Bandwidth in the Reference Library section of this forum.
 
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igufi

igufi

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How are you feeding the Yamaha? Try with remote - options - volume trim set to -6 on input source (as it's per each).
What exactly do you want to achieve? KEF's are pretty north of what I appreciate regarding time domain and not a good pair for a Yamaha AB class amp deeping to 3 Ohm's, it goes best with a modern one's with great input tolerance on lo resistance loads (G-E-H class digital).
I'm trying to figure out what needs to change to improve the transient response of my system, as the problem clearly is not external (i.e., the room).

Just replacing the speakers did not do the trick so the problem lies possibly somewhere "downstream". I suspect it is the pre and/or power amp as replacing them with a fairly modest integrated amp improved the sound a bit with the R3. But since the amp change did nothing to improve the sound of the 242s, it may also be that there is nothing to be done to improve the sound of the 242s(!). So I would have to replace both the amp section and the speakers to improve the sound, which is the most costly and inconvenient route to take - especially as I try to only buy 2nd hand and good deals come seldom.
 
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igufi

igufi

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No, not with half way decently engineered modern amps. See also Damping Factor, Slew Rate and Amplifier Bandwidth in the Reference Library section of this forum.
Then it would mean that to improve from the current setup, the 242 speakers would have to be replaced as clearly I cannot achieve the sound that I want from them. What confuses me a bit is the fact that the loaners (Kef R3) sounded worse with my amp vs. the loaned Yamaha integrated. If all amps are the same, then I'm at a loss what contributes to the change.
 

HarmonicTHD

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I'm trying to figure out what needs to change to improve the transient response of my system, as the problem clearly is not external (i.e., the room).

Just replacing the speakers did not do the trick so the problem lies possibly somewhere "downstream". I suspect it is the pre and/or power amp as replacing them with a fairly modest integrated amp improved the sound a bit with the R3. But since the amp change did nothing to improve the sound of the 242s, it may also be that there is nothing to be done to improve the sound of the 242s(!). So I would have to replace both the amp section and the speakers to improve the sound, which is the most costly and inconvenient route to take - especially as I try to only buy 2nd hand and good deals come seldom.
You need to make sure that you are not fooling yourself in your perceptions of the problem (hint: psycho acoustics and expectational biases, which every human has).

You need to get objective data so you can identify the perceived problem and assess if any counter measures are even effective.

What comes to mind:
a) get a UMIK1 (100USD) and REW (free) and see if you can identify the perceived problem either in the impulse and or frequency response. Pretty easy to do, once you know how to use it. BTW. The soft sound as you describes it, can also be caused by the room, something you can easily identify with REW and correct with EQ filters calculated by REW.
b) Do a blind preferably ABX test. Very important: ensure SPL leveling which in most cases is the main contributer to sound (and the likely explanation of your perceived differences btw the amps) Usually requires much more effort (other people or technology helping you to switch).

Speakers and Room contribute by orders of magnitude the most to sound. Electronics the least. So start there and most easily by getting REW.
 
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Plcamp

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If you can, try a dedicated power amp off the pre-out or from a volume controlled DAC.

I found I needed that for my RXA3030 Yamaha, due to parallel bass drivers having as low as 3.5 ohms impedance at about 110 hz.
 

Katji

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Speakers and Room contribute by orders of magnitude the most to sound.

Orders of magnitude.
There is something different between the 2 rooms that is making a significant difference, especially considering you perceive the same problem with both speakers.
Simple and quick - well maybe - see how it is when you sit close to the speakers. move them closer together.
PS: the previous post - review that said placement problems. Although also difficult to drive, so.....
 

JSmith

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Linn AV5125 amp
THD+N and SNR specs on the pre and DAC look decent, however the FR of the amp, this is possibly audible;

index.php


... the drop off starts around 4kHz and the piano frequencies above that are 4.186 - 7.902kHz. Based on this and your listening impressions (assuming no major expectation bias) my suggestion is a new amp that doesn't display such a problem.


JSmith
 
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igufi

igufi

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You need to make sure that you are not fooling yourself in your perceptions of the problem (hint: psycho acoustics and expectational biases, which every human has).

You need to get objective data so you can identify the perceived problem and assess if any counter measures are even effective.

What comes to mind:
a) get a UMIK1 (100USD) and REW (free) and see if you can identify the perceived problem either in the impulse and or frequency response. Pretty easy to do, once you know how to use it. BTW. The soft sound as you describes it, can also be caused by the room, something you can easily identify with REW and correct with EQ filters calculated by REW.
b) Do a blind preferably ABX test. Very important: ensure SPL leveling which in most cases is the main contributer to sound (and the likely explanation of your perceived differences btw the amps) Usually requires much more effort (other people or technology helping you to switch).

Speakers and Room contribute by orders of magnitude the most to sound. Electronics the least. So start there and most easily by getting REW.
Fair enough. The only thing I did so far was to calibrate the amps with pink noise that for each speaker with a given volume level I would get 70db C-weighted noise reading from my sound level meter. I still have to manually switch the cable to the speaker and amp. Would it be safe to have both amps connected to a speaker (there are enough slots on the back), if I only play through one amp at a time? If so, then I can give the source switching duties to someone else and just keep my eyes closed and listen...
 
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igufi

igufi

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Orders of magnitude.
There is something different between the 2 rooms that is making a significant difference, especially considering you perceive the same problem with both speakers.
Simple and quick - well maybe - see how it is when you sit close to the speakers. move them closer together.
PS: the previous post - review that said placement problems. Although also difficult to drive, so.....
The room in my case we can ignore, as the my neighbour has an identical home and pretty much identical furnishing (sofa, tables etc). The listening spot is also the same down to 30cm ;)
 

restorer-john

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THD+N and SNR specs on the pre and DAC look decent, however the FR of the amp, this is possibly audible;

index.php


... the drop off starts around 4kHz and the piano frequencies above that are 4.186 - 7.902kHz. Based on this and your listening impressions (assuming no major expectation bias) my suggestion is a new amp that doesn't display such a problem.


JSmith

That Linn amplifier's response is not remotely high fidelity. And that is only at a few watts, wait until you wind the amp up...
 
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igufi

igufi

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If your goal is accuracy, then you can more closely approach (or achieve) that by logical choices. However .... your goal seems to be "the sound I want", as you said. That's an entirely different matter, because only you know what that is. Generally, judging transient response by ear is unproductive. You may simply have a speaker/amp interaction that will fool your ears.
This is me maybe abusing the English language a bit - what I mean is that I would like to have the snare drum show some kind of "bite" and the clang in the piano should be clear and sharp. I've heard it in more high-end setups but assumed this was unattainable, until proven wrong by my neighbour with his fairly modest setup.

Amps are not all the same. Competently designed amps will sound the same within their power envelopes, and give a listener results that are indistinguishable. But there are many, many amps out there that are either designed to a price point or are "boutique" amps that are, IMO, not competently designed. This especially applies to loudspeakers that are notoriously difficult to drive.

Here is the Stereophile page on measurements of the Linn:

https://www.stereophile.com/content/linn-akurate-242-loudspeaker-measurements

Read it carefully. There were placement problems, inconsistent tonalities, and the euphemistic phrase, "somewhat demanding load". Jim
I've read that review, in fact I even linked it in my original post. It is the source of my faint hope that I could still "fix" some of the shortcomings with a beefier amp that can handle more difficult loads.
 

ZolaIII

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I'm trying to figure out what needs to change to improve the transient response of my system, as the problem clearly is not external (i.e., the room).

Just replacing the speakers did not do the trick so the problem lies possibly somewhere "downstream". I suspect it is the pre and/or power amp as replacing them with a fairly modest integrated amp improved the sound a bit with the R3. But since the amp change did nothing to improve the sound of the 242s, it may also be that there is nothing to be done to improve the sound of the 242s(!). So I would have to replace both the amp section and the speakers to improve the sound, which is the most costly and inconvenient route to take - especially as I try to only buy 2nd hand and good deals come seldom.
I already told you those two (Sunken Yamaha and KEF R3) really don't go together well. Did you read KEF R3 review hire? Amir had a room resonance at about 105 Hz which is actually hard to shawe (usually a small spike under it needs to be taken care of) which sounds bad and he is in under 2% listener's who have rather good listening conditions. Please learn to use mic as measurement tool, diagnose and exclude possible causes including subject related one's (go out there to; showrooms, dilers and exhibitions) and in a good setup listen to the bunch of different speakers without signal processing and with it but with an explanation of what it doe's in particular case). I still even don't know do you want tight well defined accurate responses or that it's boomy (which R3 is a bit) and perceived how?
 
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igufi

igufi

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I already told you those two (Sunken Yamaha and KEF R3) really don't go together well. Did you read KEF R3 review hire? Amir had a room resonance at about 105 Hz which is actually hard to shawe (usually a small spike under it needs to be taken care of) which sounds bad and he is in under 2% listener's who have rather good listening conditions. Please learn to use mic as measurement tool, diagnose and exclude possible causes including subject related one's (go out there to; showrooms, dilers and exhibitions) and in a good setup listen to the bunch of different speakers without signal processing and with it but with an explanation of what it doe's in particular case). I still even don't know do you want tight well defined accurate responses or that it's boomy (which R3 is a bit) and perceived how?

I think I'm to blame here, I did not explain myself properly. The R3 nor the Yamaha are not really the point - I am not planning on buying them, they simply happen to reveal an incorrect assumption I had:
  • I assumed certain level of instrument separation with sharp attack of the sound was not possible in the type of room I have (early reflections or something)
  • I witnessed the above sound ^ in a room (and device/listener layout) perfectly identical to mine, so my assumption was incorrect.
  • The problem must lie in my audio setup.
  • I loaned the speakers that gave that sound in that particular room to test. The results did not match.
  • I started replacing parts of the audio chain to see what needs to change so that the loaned speaker would behave the same way it did in the other identical room.
  • I ran out of ideas :)
 
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igufi

igufi

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Oops! Perhaps I need to read posts more slowly and more carefully! :oops: Jim
Sorry, I did meen to sound so snarky - in all fairness the link was buried in my footnotes. :-/
 

HarmonicTHD

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I think I'm to blame here, I did not explain myself properly. The R3 nor the Yamaha are not really the point - I am not planning on buying them, they simply happen to reveal an incorrect assumption I had:
  • I assumed certain level of instrument separation with sharp attack of the sound was not possible in the type of room I have (early reflections or something)
  • I witnessed the above sound ^ in a room (and device/listener layout) perfectly identical to mine, so my assumption was incorrect.
  • The problem must lie in my audio setup.
  • I loaned the speakers that gave that sound in that particular room to test. The results did not match.
  • I started replacing parts of the audio chain to see what needs to change so that the loaned speaker would behave the same way it did in the other identical room.
  • I ran out of ideas :)
Get data. See above. Umik and REW. Everything else is speculation and hypothesis and waste of time from this point forward.

Now we need facts to see which of all the mentioned possible causes are correct. Once we know, you can efficiently fix the problem and even better proof the effectiveness of the fix.
 

Mart68

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I've read that review, in fact I even linked it in my original post. It is the source of my faint hope that I could still "fix" some of the shortcomings with a beefier amp that can handle more difficult loads.
I think you can, as you say in this case we can rule out the room as the issue.

But you have twin problem, neither your amplification or speakers are good enough to deliver what you want. Both measure quite poorly. I'd get rid of them if I were you.
 

SIY

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This is me maybe abusing the English language a bit - what I mean is that I would like to have the snare drum show some kind of "bite" and the clang in the piano should be clear and sharp.
This one screams "EQ!"
 

gnarly

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@OP
Sounds like you have a really good neighbor, for the loan of the speakers.
Maybe the neighbor will help you further...loan you components as well, until the sound clicks into place (or doesn't) ...???
 
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