Can speakers become cheap(er)

[Yorkshire Mouth]

Okay, so we've seen the standard of DACs and amps improve, and prices plummet. And we're seeing plenty of headphones which are close enough to Harman (or whatever your preference) and low enough distortion, to get pretty much 'perfect' sound for not a great deal of cash.

But speaker prices remain high. Yes, you can still get budget models, and yes we've always been able to. But a 'decent' pair of speakers still appears to be high.

Is there any sign on the horizon that speakers might be next? Is there a barrier to this due to how speakers work? Might AI design help?

 

[YouDontHaveEnoughBass]

I see no reason why cheap mass produced speakers with a port, a 5 or 6 inch woofer and a tweeter in an injection moulded waveguide couldn’t be a thing in future, especially as klippels etc are further adopted by the industry

We’re already slowly seeing this

 

[ShadowFiend]

No, I do not think so as the cost of wood, metal, magnet, copper, as well as labor cost can not be cheaper.

 

[Cote Dazur]

They already are.
The challenge with speakers, as opposed to anything else, is that they need a room to play and they need to be placed in the room adequately and you need to listen to them from a specific location.
The speaker itself is only one part of the equation.
Measuring, even with advance tools like the Klippel, is a huge step in the right direction, but can only take you so far.
We have access to many test of people listening to speakers without knowing what speaker play, preferring the cheaper model, proving that cost, is not a valid factor for evaluation.
Some people may think they need to spend a fortune for a pair of speaker, but one look at their listening room set up, or absence of even listening room, clearly shows that the money spent might impress a layman visitor, but whatever sound greatness that speaker is supposed to deliver will not be a factor.

 

[ivayvr]

Add to that the cost of shipping.
Even a very small speakers are bulky and heavy compared to most DACs and headphones.

 

[Power Pop 23]

I recall a posting quoting Andrew Jones as saying the cost of the enclosure is a major expense of a low-cost loudspeaker.

Perhaps this cost could be reduced if a 3-D printer can create a performant enclosure.

 

[Redacted]

"wood, metal, magnet, copper" - are all going up in price.

But if you look at guitars, they use all these materials and yet you can now buy a better Chinese guitar for 1/4 the price of that from the old oligopoly suppliers, so there must be scope for Chinese brand speakers.

I expect most speakers bought in the west are made in China, but you are still paying a ton for the familiar badges - there is scope for Chinese brands to cut out what is essentially an expensive middle man. Especially now their electronic kit has cut through so successfully. I think some familiar audio groups have already been bought up by Chinese firms.

 

[girtab]

I got my polk r700s for 1500 EUR a pair brand new which is dirt cheap for what they produce

 

[Avp1]

I see no reason why cheap mass produced speakers with a port, a 5 or 6 inch woofer and a tweeter in an injection moulded waveguide couldn’t be a thing in future, especially as klippels etc are further adopted by the industry

We’re already slowly seeing this

There will be no mass produced speakers. Considering demand, there will be smaller and smaller production runs for each model. Though now you can find very good and very reasonably priced speakers if you do deep search: see thread about Atlantis Lab speakers down on this forum.

 

[YouDontHaveEnoughBass]

Ascend CBM-170SE2 Speaker Review

This is a review, listening tests and detailed measurements of the Ascend Acoustics CBM-170SE2. It was sent to me by the company and costs USD $248 each. $468 a pair. There is a grill which I removed, making the speaker look utilitarian. Pick it up though and you realize it weighs more than...

www.audiosciencereview.com

Another one

 

[Matt_Holland]

Okay, so we've seen the standard of DACs and amps improve, and prices plummet. And we're seeing plenty of headphones which are close enough to Harman (or whatever your preference) and low enough distortion, to get pretty much 'perfect' sound for not a great deal of cash.

But speaker prices remain high. Yes, you can still get budget models, and yes we've always been able to. But a 'decent' pair of speakers still appears to be high.

Is there any sign on the horizon that speakers might be next? Is there a barrier to this due to how speakers work? Might AI design help?

What do you define as “decent” and “high”?

I think we already are over the horizon with the increasing amount of direct to consumer manufacturers like Ascend, Buchardt and and even KEF although they still maintain distribution and dealer margins. But unlike electronics, which have become small enough to make materials and shipping/distribution costs lower then before, speakers are still large items that bear the same costs as they always did. The only thing that could change substantially was, and probably will continue to be, direct to consumer sales model.

 

[kemmler3D]

I recall a posting quoting Andrew Jones as saying the cost of the enclosure is a major expense of a low-cost loudspeaker.

Perhaps this cost could be reduced if a 3-D printer can create a performant enclosure.

It's possible today but not very cheap or fast for the consumer. Printing an enclosure that is physically comparable to an MDF one takes days (for anything bigger than a tiny desktop speaker) and $10-30 per kilo of material. I'm a big proponent of making enclosures this way but it's still an enthusiast thing.

Overall I agree that speakers can't get a lot cheaper than they are now, size, shipping and raw materials are a floor on the price. We can get better performance out of the same raw materials over time with waveguides in particular, but we'll never see a $10 cone based speaker worth buying, unlike physically small things like dongle DACs or IEMs.

 

[fritobugger]

Okay, so we've seen the standard of DACs and amps improve, and prices plummet. And we're seeing plenty of headphones which are close enough to Harman (or whatever your preference) and low enough distortion, to get pretty much 'perfect' sound for not a great deal of cash.

But speaker prices remain high. Yes, you can still get budget models, and yes we've always been able to. But a 'decent' pair of speakers still appears to be high.

Is there any sign on the horizon that speakers might be next? Is there a barrier to this due to how speakers work? Might AI design help?

How much cheaper do you expect well measuring speakers to get? There are a lot of well priced choices in the sub $500/pair range.

The Polk XT20 can be found for $200 on sale. Taking things ever further, Edifier has several powered speakers that measure well in the sub $200 range which would be great for near field use and don't require the purchase of an amplifier.

Computing power and measurement tools have allowed designers to create speakers that sound good and measure well for almost any budget.

 

[Waxx]

It's true that prices don't go down that much, but quality is rising fast for a given price, so they became a lot cheaper already if you look at price/quality. But a 50 or 100€/$ quality speaker is probally not possible for the reasons mentioned above.

 

[TonyJZX]

this discussion kind of pops up with those just reviewed Ascends...

in the past hasnt that Polish guy xmechanic designed them speakers that blitzed the charts

realistically there's still a lot of fat left to cut... no one really believes $450 us is as low as it goes right?

to me someone in china should have flat packed a kit w/ volume 6" driver dome tweet and crossover already with the klippel charts showing they know what they are doing

why ship shenzen air over the sea?

 

[ShadowFiend]

If you rate speaker only by seeing the "infamous" speaker preference ratings or directivity index then of course speaker now is much better than before and there will be time you can get excellent speaker at low price. Problem is, there are important factors missing in the rating. They are bass quality, characterised by low harmonic distortion in bass and lower midrange frequency, especially in higher SPL and bass quantity, characterised by the maximum possible SPL in bass frequency that your speaker can reproduce.

Both factors are by product of quality of low frequency drivers (big and optimized motor, voice coil, big and quality cone, quality suspension parts) and/or big cabinet volume. And this kinds of thing is strongly effect by price of material (magnet, steel, aluminium, copper, wood) and also lead to higher transport cost.

The easiest thing you can see is the difference between Ascilab C6B vs A6B with same tweeter, nearly the same waveguide, same 6.5-inch
woofer class. But difference between SB17CAC (C6B) and PTT6.5X (A6B) is pretty huge in bass and lower midrange region. And while I admire what XMechanik has done, the low frequency response of his Mechano23 is hugely limited due to the 5.25" SB Acoustics SB13PFC

 

[kemmler3D]

this discussion kind of pops up with those just reviewed Ascends...

in the past hasnt that Polish guy xmechanic designed them speakers that blitzed the charts

realistically there's still a lot of fat left to cut... no one really believes $450 us is as low as it goes right?

to me someone in china should have flat packed a kit w/ volume 6" driver dome tweet and crossover already with the klippel charts showing they know what they are doing

why ship shenzen air over the sea?

Good waveguides can be injection molded, and if you compromise a bit you can get a pretty cheap flat-packed MDF kit. Good drivers require substantial bits of metal, though. And the speaker can only be made so small, so you need a reasonable amount of MDF and shipping weight / size.

So I think the price floor for a good pair of speakers (say on par with the Mechano2X series) is still no less than $100. So cheaper is possible, but cheaper in the way that good DACs or even IEMs have gotten cheaper by 10x is IMO not possible.

 

[Tito]

"wood, metal, magnet, copper" - are all going up in price.

But if you look at guitars, they use all these materials and yet you can now buy a better Chinese guitar for 1/4 the price of that from the old oligopoly suppliers, so there must be scope for Chinese brand speakers.

I expect most speakers bought in the west are made in China, but you are still paying a ton for the familiar badges - there is scope for Chinese brands to cut out what is essentially an expensive middle man. Especially now their electronic kit has cut through so successfully. I think some familiar audio groups have already been bought up by Chinese firms.

benton and jet are european designed guitars, asian made, great bang for the buck. , (dare i say Kali and Adam equivalents of 0-800 euros)



Yet, China designed and made Grote sells guitar with roasted maple neck with stainless steel frets for 134 euros in eu. ridiculous!
i believe that fender roasted neck without stainless steel is 250 euros,.

But i do wonder why there isnt
Grote equivalent in China in studio monitor department that can rival Kali lp6 , in5 and Adam t7v ????

one should open a thread on subject..

i did expect that Edifier could rival adam and kali up to 800 euros department, i did not follow what they released in last 6 months

 

[TonyJZX]

Good waveguides can be injection molded, and if you compromise a bit you can get a pretty cheap flat-packed MDF kit. Good drivers require substantial bits of metal, though. And the speaker can only be made so small, so you need a reasonable amount of MDF and shipping weight / size.

So I think the price floor for a good pair of speakers (say on par with the Mechano2X series) is still no less than $100. So cheaper is possible, but cheaper in the way that good DACs or even IEMs have gotten cheaper by 10x is IMO not possible.

ironically those ascends have good dispersion by good tweeter selection and it uses no wave guide

$100 sounds way too low to me but them recently discussed Micca MB42 seems to have done a lot for that kind of money

Micca MB42X G2 Budget Speaker Review

This is a review, listening tests and detailed measurements of the Micca MB42X G2 low cost 2-way bookshelf speaker. It is on kind loan from a member and costs US $100 for a pair, shipping included. I expected thin, cheap plywood construction but instead, found a robust composite enclosure that...

www.audiosciencereview.com

i do think a "MB62" wouldnt be far off from what OP desires

i look at this as kind of like the holy grail

i remember one of the mantras i heard here is that a set of bookshelf speakers should NOT be $1,000 usd because there is just not that much in them...

I have a few sets of relative expensive bookshelf speakers and its the name that sells them

some of us are interested in how far you can get into 'SOTA" for as little money as possible... once you get Xmechanic or ascend type performance from a flat pack china company then is kind of end game... where else can you go from there... that's it

i feel like we are almost there with amps... the dual chip tpa3255 pffb $99 amps that push out something like 70-80w per channel is kind of where it ends really

dacs we have kind of reached end game already

we are so close - that's exciting

 

[Redacted]

benton and jet are european designed guitars, asian made, great bang for the buck. , (dare i say Kali and Adam equivalents of 0-800 euros)

Yet, China designed and made Grote sells guitar with roasted maple neck with stainless steel frets for 134 euros in eu. ridiculous!
i believe that fender roasted neck without stainless steel is 250 euros,.

But i do wonder why there isnt
Grote equivalent in China in studio monitor department that can rival Kali lp6 , in5 and Adam t7v ????

one should open a thread on subject..

i did expect that Edifier could rival adam and kali up to 800 euros department, i did not follow what they released in last 6 months

Know the thread is about cheaper speakers, but....

I was bought a Fender American Deluxe HSS Strat in 2013, by my wife, when I retired. It's perfectly good to use. It happened be the most comfy fit for my hands after trying ~50 guitars in a single day in a shop, without prejudice. It has some of the good bits on it (that an engineer like me would notice), like staggered locking tuners, LSR roller nut, extra p/u switching combinations. The neck has stayed straight and nothing has broken but it has been re-fretted twice as the Fender nickel-silver frets were made out shiny chocolate (it now has S/S frets, which are massively better, and the whole jobs was just £85, but should be fitted as new all guitars to avoid short life).

I blether, but I'm sure that if I bought today, I could buy a Chinese for say, 1/4 of the price and everything about it would be as good or better than my current one (which of course now has sentimental value). I suspect the traditional guitar makers spend most of the price of their guitars on saturation marketing.

I'm not keen to spend time in a thread on the subject (or on any online forum), because if anything, guitar owners are more easily conned and are more "precious" than audio enthusiasts are (same snake oil) - but really, with a guitar you only need to know a) is it pretty? (if you care); b) is it well-built with usable features? and c) does it fit my hand well? - everything else is easily sorted with electronics or a bit of home-luthier-style setup these days. Almost any guitar can be made to sound like another if you know what to do.