Can speakers be as precise as headphones?

[sejarzo]

Quite a few years ago, I had an extended conversation with a violinist on head-fi who was disappointed that no IEMs he had tried made any violin recordings sound right to him.

He finally realized that what seemed "right" to him was what he heard with his left ear inches from the bow, and there was no good reason for recordings made with a stereo pair many feet away to sound the same.

To me, way too many of us expect recordings to be akin to photographs (or maybe some form of hologram) when in fact they most often are more akin to somewhat realistic paintings, if that makes sense. How one wants to view the painting...up close to see the details, or from farther away to appreciate the work as a whole...is a matter of personal preference.

 

[napilopez]

Quite a few years ago, I had an extended conversation with a violinist on head-fi who was disappointed that no IEMs he had tried made any violin recordings sound right to him.

He finally realized that what seemed "right" to him was what he heard with his left ear inches from the bow, and there was no good reason for recordings made with a stereo pair many feet away to sound the same.

To me, way too many of us expect recordings to be akin to photographs (or maybe some form of hologram) when in fact they most often are more akin to somewhat realistic paintings, if that makes sense. How one wants to view the painting...up close to see the details, or from farther away to appreciate the work as a whole...is a matter of personal preference.

Yep - the job of stereo is to create a convincing illusion, not to replicate the actual sound field. Binaural is the only way to get an actual photograph.

Not that the illusion is a bad thing in and of itself though. I guess it's kind of a brain in a vat situation =]

 

[Blumlein 88]

I said it before and I'll say it again: Good binaural >>> everything else. You need to get lucky with the HRTFs - assuming the music wasn't recorded with a model of your head and ears - but when it's right, it's oh so right. You do miss some of the tangibility of the bass, and you can't share binaural music easily with a friend, but the best multi-channel setups pale in comparison - they don't have the depth and precise localization of binaural.

I do know some people are working on making binaural happen for speakers too though.

I think a lot of it depends on what you started on too. Older audiophiles generally seem to have started on speakers, while a lot of younger audiophiles started with headphones. Noise floor (although I have a rather low one), room issues, distractions, etc mean that in practice, speakers never really come close to the detail of headphones for me, and I think that'll always bug me. I'm more into speakers nowadays, but that's purely for the spatial cues in most music, and because I do so much of my listening with my S.O.

My problem is apparently unlucky HRTFs. Binaural never sounds very good to me, and it has only a little space outside each ear, and a very messed up relationship inside my head otherwise. Jecklin disc recordings sound pretty good to me over headphones, but still inside my head. Just not quite so strung on a single line as most recordings. I use headphones when no other choice fits the situation or when listening for those tiny details that headphones highlight better than speakers.

 

[sejarzo]

Yep - the job of stereo is to create a convincing illusion, not to replicate the actual sound field. Binaural is the only way to get an actual photograph.

Not that the illusion is a bad thing in and of itself though. I guess it's kind of a brain in a vat situation =]

I downloaded a binaural "live" recording from the Milwaukee Symphony Orchestra, and it just sounded weird on headphones. Later on, I found a link that said it was made using the dummy head suspended above the orchestra, "looking" downward. Doh. I suppose that was the best option to minimize crowd noise, but still, that perspective is just wrong.

Likewise, setting up a dummy head in the middle of the main floor of an unpopulated concert hall isn't going to mimic the sound with the seats occupied.

The other thing that I have some reservations about is just how much my pinnas differ from those on the dummy head. I keep reading about all the studies that "prove" that IEMs need that bump at 2.5 kHz to make up for the missing natural gain there, but I find that most IEMs have way too much of a bump.

 

[napilopez]

My problem is apparently unlucky HRTFs. Binaural never sounds very good to me, and it has only a little space outside each ear, and a very messed up relationship inside my head otherwise. Jecklin disc recordings sound pretty good to me over headphones, but still inside my head. Just not quite so strung on a single line as most recordings. I use headphones when no other choice fits the situation or when listening for those tiny details that headphones highlight better than speakers.

Yeah, I recognize a lot of people have these issues. It's interesting so see how some companies are working on AI to make better binaural - such as by taking a photo of your ears and adapting the HRTF based on estimated dimensions. I seem to get lucky, though obviously it depends on the recording. I do best on the ones done on a proper dummy head, not the ones that try to find a midway point that also sounds good on speakers.

 

[Loonabae]

Funny how people who only used headphones, NEVER complain as much about the 3D stereo aspect vs speaker only crowd. Because I've never had any issue with metal, rock and more on my Etymotic IEM's. In fact majority of electronic i listen to the headphone sound is a bonus where the intimacy adds to atmosphere on Ambient, Drone stuff.

Times are changing i see more people walking away with a ER3XR, HD6XX or a DT1990 pro, LCD2C, HD800, Than any 2.1 to 5.1+ set up.

 

[sejarzo]

Times are changing i see more people walking away with a ER3XR, HD6XX or a DT1990 pro, LCD2C, HD800, Than any 2.1 to 5.1+ set up.

Yep. What I give up in using cans--emphasis on what **I**--is not as much as I give up in room effects that remain a problem, even with all the room treatment I have installed along with various forms of room correction to fix the residual problems (a TacT unit, REW, and Audyssey in an HT receiver.) LOL...this pic is kinda old. None of the electronics on the stand are still in house.

Like they say, you go to war with the army ya got, not the army ya want. Faced with low ceilings and that post in the center of the room which forced an asymmetrical layout, I was just never pleased.

 

[Senior NEET Engineer]

I have opposite problem. Headphones don't sound as precise as speakers for me.

When I listen to headphones, music sounds like a "diffuse" sound field where all the sounds are being blended together into a small space. Some of the headphones I've tried: Focal Elex, Focal Utopia, Audeze LCD-4, RAAL-Requisite SR1a.

When I listen to speakers, there is enough clarity and separation between individual notes that I can close my eyes and visualize it.. the vividness of the experience demands my attention.

Surround sound is on another level, but it requires a dedicated room and optimization for single listener to do it right.

 

[Loonabae]

Yep. What I give up in using cans--emphasis on what **I**--is not as much as I give up in room effects that remain a problem, even with all the room treatment I have installed along with various forms of room correction to fix the residual problems (a TacT unit, REW, and Audyssey in an HT receiver.) LOL...this pic is kinda old. None of the electronics on the stand are still in house.

Like they say, you go to war with the army ya got, not the army ya want. Faced with low ceilings and that post in the center of the room which forced an asymmetrical layout, I was just never pleased.

Yup, I've found the whole you need to these 12 step and stuff argument bit silly, Like room treatment and complex EQ to help speakers. When someone shifts to headphone only because that almost reminds me of what 90's era vinyl audiophiles did when someone preached the sound of Digital audio(CD, well encoded lossy).

The ER3XR & HD6XX are pretty much plug an play, On other sites I've seen people use the few i listed for movies and gaming. For the whole streamer areas they all use headphones or IEM's, rarely anything speakers.