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Can speaker harmonic distortion decrease to 1% or less if SPL is lowered enough?

Can the speaker harmonic distortion decrease to 1% or less if SPL is lowered enough? Say 65 dB.
Tl;Dr ;) It is mathematically granted to be so, yepp. Remember your calculus class - the Taylor approximation. It is used in science a lot in order to 'linearize' otherwise complex problems. Second and higher order contributions, beyond good plain 'linear', vanish more or less quickly with decreasing amplitude, depends. The more 'linear' the less distortion of any sort.

Another problem is rub 'n buzz, but in case the speaker must be considered defective.
 
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I am assuming the reason for reduced FMD with a larger driver is less required excursion for a given SPL. Otherwise it wouldn't make sense, and yes, more ways means less IMD all other things being equal.
Not so much slower but moving less.
That does not jive with my memory of FMD studies and speakers designed to reduce it way back in the primordial past. It was more an issue with frequency distribution and cone flexure across the driver. Solutions were multiple smaller drivers, bandlimited drivers, flatter stiffer drivers, and perhaps reduced excursion but the latter was handled by multiple drivers and band limiting IIRC. Smaller drivers meant less area for lower frequency modes and displacement (movement) to modulate higher frequencies. There were a number of articles in the 1970's/1980's in various trade (AES, IEE, etc.) and consumer (e.g. Audio) magazines. I remember the solution mainly being a multitude of smaller drivers, but not all the details. Audio even ran an article on constructing a speaker designed to reduce FMD by using a bunch of small drivers IIRC.

I have not thought about it in a long time; I thought multi-driver systems and more advanced (steeper, higher-order) crossovers pretty much solved that problem?
 
That does not jive with my memory of FMD studies and speakers designed to reduce it way back in the primordial past. It was more an issue with frequency distribution and cone flexure across the driver. Solutions were multiple smaller drivers, bandlimited drivers, flatter stiffer drivers, and perhaps reduced excursion but the latter was handled by multiple drivers and band limiting IIRC. Smaller drivers meant less area for lower frequency modes and displacement (movement) to modulate higher frequencies. There were a number of articles in the 1970's/1980's in various trade (AES, IEE, etc.) and consumer (e.g. Audio) magazines. I remember the solution mainly being a multitude of smaller drivers, but not all the details. Audio even ran an article on constructing a speaker designed to reduce FMD by using a bunch of small drivers IIRC.

I have not thought about it in a long time; I thought multi-driver systems and more advanced (steeper, higher-order) crossovers pretty much solved that problem?
This all makes sense, I was only talking about doppler distortion, which (as I understand it) for any given bandwidth you can minimize but not eliminate, since the cone does need to move, after all.
 
I can confidently state that if you lower SPL enough, you will hear nothing at all! ;)
 
That does not jive with my memory of FMD studies ... Solutions were multiple smaller drivers, bandlimited drivers, flatter stiffer drivers, and perhaps reduced excursion but the latter was handled by multiple drivers and band limiting IIRC.
As far as I remember the problem was stated as follows; bigger drivers have a directivity pattern with many lobes or 'fingers'. These lobes move together with the cone, hence output is modulated at any point in the sound field, especially at the rim of those fingers. A fallacy in not mentioning ferquency modulation, the inherent Doppler effect, resolved long ago with multiway speakers.

It was a time of experimentation once amplifiers were available to the public, and demand exploded. Today the market of people with disposable income seems to saturated, or the targeted cohort vanished. That's why elder ideas and motivating concerns get resurrected in today's money.

I can confidently state that if you lower SPL enough, you will hear nothing at all! ;)
Subjectively, that's a subjectivist claim and you cannot prove it. Your non-technical argument is over-simplified! ;)
 
Reducing FMD usually requires smaller, not larger, drivers...

My thought is that if you kept SPL and bandwidth for the driver in question constant, but used a larger area, the cone would be moving more slowly for a given signal, and therefore FMD would decrease. But I might have confused myself here.

Not so much slower but moving less.
This is about the same thing, like an engine with a shorter stroke has a slower average piston speed at the same RPM. Moving a smaller distance at the same frequency means slower average speed.

I agree with this [amplitude of driver displacement related to distortion] and believe it is one of the reasons Magnepans have such low distortion in the mids & treble at moderate levels. Also why Audeze planars have some of the lowest distortion Amir has measured in a headphone. In both cases the drivers have a large surface area, for any given SPL they are barely moving compared to a conventional driver having much smaller surface area. My 3.6/R measure THD at -50 dB in the mids and -60 dB in the treble, which includes the distortion added by the microphone and electronics. Designed and built 25 years ago, so it's not exactly new technology.

But with conventional speakers I've also seen it go the other way, smaller drivers having lower distortion. I don't know why. [edit: @DonH56 gives some reasons above].
 
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... I remember the solution mainly being a multitude of smaller drivers, but not all the details. Audio even ran an article on constructing a speaker designed to reduce FMD by using a bunch of small drivers IIRC.
That makes sense because with a multitude of smaller drivers each one has smaller displacement of movement for any given SPL. You get the best of both worlds: benefits of high total surface area yet with smaller drivers where the motion can be better controlled.
 
with conventional speakers I've also seen it go the other way, smaller drivers having lower distortion
I think this is probably because despite being "unbeatable" AFAIK doppler distortion is rarely the most significant source of distortion for a speaker. As @DonH56 mentions, stuff like breakup and other nonlinearities probably become audible much sooner.
 
I think this is probably because despite being "unbeatable" AFAIK doppler distortion is rarely the most significant source of distortion for a speaker. As @DonH56 mentions, stuff like breakup and other nonlinearities probably become audible much sooner.
The reason distortion increases with amplitude isn't necessarily limited to doppler effects. Generally speaking, electro-mechanical systems that are designed to be linear are never perfectly so. They tend to be most linear at/near their neutral/rest position and progressively less so when displaced further away from that position. Small displacements are linear, big displacements, less so.
 
The reason distortion increases with amplitude isn't necessarily limited to doppler effects. Generally speaking, electro-mechanical systems that are designed to be linear are never perfectly so. They tend to be most linear at/near their neutral/rest position and progressively less so when displaced further away from that position. Small displacements are linear, big displacements, less so.
I think we are re-ventilating old, severely flawed concepts. First of all, regarding the original question, look and see my post #21 for a definite answer.

When it comes to the origin of loudspeaker, especially driver distortion, you may want to re-visit the Klippel site. Before he invented, together with his students, the scanner, he revolutionized the analysis of driver performance - with a LASER. That was the root of all good today, go figure! Now drivers get 'klippeled' like you 'google'. I can't imagine that his fame doesn't reach beyond his hometown. (One might say, two strikes in succession like relativity ... nay, to much.)

The site, if you don't 'google': https://www.klippel.de/index.html
This may be interesting for starters: https://www.klippel.de/listeningtest/
 
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I think this is probably because despite being "unbeatable" AFAIK doppler distortion is rarely the most significant source of distortion for a speaker. As @DonH56 mentions, stuff like breakup and other nonlinearities probably become audible much sooner.
FMD or Doppler distortion was "the new boogieman" for a while but has been inaudible for practical purposes for a long time (though no doubt there are some flawed designs out there). The voice coil/magnet system (including spider and surround) is nonlinear, becoming more so as excursion increases, and is the dominant distortion mechanism IME/IMO until the cone begins to break up and/or the voice coil physically clips (bottoms out). Not FMD, Doppler, crossover capacitors, wires... In recent history the biggest source of FMD is actually coupling from LF to HF drivers inside the box, one reason isolated internal boxes for mid and high drivers became popular, but IMO other sources still outweigh those effects. Except for those who can hear the virus on the flea on the hair of the dog...

Frequency response aberrations, which is not nonlinear distortion in the conventional electronic sense, are the biggest contributors to poor (or, "less optimal") sound from many speakers per Toole and others.
 
FMD or Doppler distortion was "the new boogieman" for a while but has been inaudible for practical purposes for a long time (though no doubt there are some flawed designs out there).
In early days Klipsch advertized their horns as virtually IM free. That cannot be said about tiny two ways of today, used with today's bass heavy music.

The voice coil/magnet system (including spider and surround) is nonlinear, becoming more so as excursion increases, ...
I cannot agree, it remains linear if you look at a sufficiently small part of its characteristics. It doesn't need to be around rest position, see my post #21 for reference.

... and is the dominant distortion mechanism ...
Depends on what you consider relevant for the hearing.

... until the cone begins to break up ...
What is the distortion generating mechanism? Did you mean 'surround'?

In recent history the biggest source of FMD is actually coupling from LF to HF drivers inside the box, ...
Again, what is the suggested mechanism to generate FM distortion?

Klippel, famous maker of the Near Field Scanner, has it all, again, lookup his LASER beam: https://www.klippel.de/products/rd-system.html
The topic of speaker distortion is well understood in academia and in the industry. (Human perception, though, is not.) Why don't we discuss it in contemporary terms?
 
Aside: I really don't care enough about this to enter some lengthy debate, nor is speaker design my area of expertise. Plenty of threads drag on endlessly.

In early days Klipsch advertized their horns as virtually IM free. That cannot be said about tiny two ways of today, used with today's bass heavy music.
I agree, but do not think Doppler distortion is the primary distortion mechanism.

I cannot agree, it remains linear if you look at a sufficiently small part of its characteristics. It doesn't need to be around rest position, see my post #21 for reference.
My world is (was) analog circuit design, so "linear" always refers to a small region and nothing is completely, perfectly, 100% linear though certainly may be inaudible.

Depends on what you consider relevant for the hearing.
Again, do you think Doppler distortion is the most relevant distortion mechanism?

What is the distortion generating mechanism? Did you mean 'surround'?
No, standing waves on the cones causing nonlinear acoustic wave production. My old acoustics text book has a series of pictures and we managed to recreate the process in lab experiments for grad school. We used a strobe and motion picture (movie) camera as we did not have all the right pieces to create a laser interferometry system (they did that after I graduated).

Again, what is the suggested mechanism to generate FM distortion?
Modulation of one cone (driver) via air pressure (sound waves, compression and rarefaction) coupling within the box, e.g. pressure from the woofer moving the tweeter cone.

Klippel, famous maker of the Near Field Scanner, has it all, again, lookup his LASER beam: https://www.klippel.de/products/rd-system.html
The topic of speaker distortion is well understood in academia and in the industry. (Human perception, though, is not.) Why don't we discuss it in contemporary terms?
Because I'm an old fart, researched this topic decades ago to my satisfaction, and it is not a subject in which I have a deep current interest. I leave that to guys like you and others on this thread with more experience, knowledge, and interest. I do remember when B&W was showing laser interferometry plots of cone breakup and such back in the 1980's, when I was looking into this, and it was very neat to see and talk with their designers about it.
 
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I'll just take this opportunity to apologize for bringing up Doppler distortion... I don't think it's a very significantly audible phenomenon, I just think it's interesting because it's inherent to how cones work... But let's not have another 24 pages quibbling about it!
 
Tl;Dr ;) It is mathematically granted to be so, yepp. Remember your calculus class - the Taylor approximation. It is used in science a lot in order to 'linearize' otherwise complex problems. Second and higher order contributions, beyond good plain 'linear', vanish more or less quickly with decreasing amplitude, depends. The more 'linear' the less distortion of any sort.

Another problem is rub 'n buzz, but in case the speaker must be considered defective.
If you have data for a specific speaker, how it performs at, for example, 86dB and 96dB, sure. Now I interpreted TS's question generally, or I was too quick and read in a instead of the speaker, that is, in this case the JBL 305P.

A speaker where nothing at all is measured to begin with, you of course know nothing about distortion at 65dB, just as you also know nothing about it at any other dB level. That in itself is perhaps a bit obvious to point out, so I shouldn't have interpreted TS's question as such.
 
If you have data for a specific speaker, how it performs at, for example, 86dB and 96dB, sure. Now I interpreted TS's question generally, or I was too quick and read in a instead of the speaker, that is, in this case the JBL 305P.

A speaker where nothing at all is measured to begin with, you of course know nothing about distortion at 65dB, just as you also know nothing about it at any other dB level. That in itself is perhaps a bit obvious to point out, so I shouldn't have interpreted TS's question as such.
I'm proficient in using maths as a tool, like many scientists (ref post #21). In explaining it, I'm not that good.

Yeah, it was a general question, the 305 was taken as an example.

Aside: I really don't care enough about this to enter some lengthy debate ...
As I said, and linke into here, speaker distortion is in all its glorious detail accessible via a LASER Klippel analyser - not just harminic distortion ... it is "all in" as you may say. The advent of THE Klippel was a disruptive change, that you may have missed. It is the (only) reason why we have those fantastic speaker chassis today. I said that all before ...
Tl;dr? Sorry, why then this debate from the sideline, re-ventilating falsehoods from 50 years back?
 
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To help illustrate the harmonic distortion vs noise floor interplay issue that several people discussed, here is a comparison when the distortion measured below the noise floor is masked.

First unmasked. My DIY MEH & sub. 91dB @ 1m.
(Cursor for distortion levels is at 50Hz)

1739980718845.png


Below noise floor masked.

1739980841140.png


My room is not really what I'd call noisy. It's in a single residence house with HVAC, appliances, and fans in my amps being major noise makers.
So I think noise is a bigger issue than THD.
Personally, I don't give a whole lot of credence to trying to achieve extra low harmonic distortion (despite the relatively good looking results above).
There are bigger fish to fry when trying to improve sound quality imo.
 
As I said, and linke into here, speaker distortion is in all its glorious detail accessible via a LASER Klippel analyser - not just harminic distortion ... it is "all in" as you may say. The advent of THE Klippel was a disruptive change, that you may have missed. It is the (only) reason why we have those fantastic speaker chassis today. I said that all before ...
Tl;dr? Sorry, why then this debate from the sideline, re-ventilating falsehoods from 50 years back?
I did not miss it, but my day job was high-speed (RF/mW) analog IC design, not audio, and certainly not speaker design. I never claimed to be an expert in everything and have stated speaker design is not my area of expertise. As far as I know I did not state falsehoods but responded to other posts. In any event I am out as this has gone far enough for me and devolving into personal attacks.
 
Well this thread has become quite contentious.

Lets all play nice and be respectful please and perhaps take a few breaths before posting some of the more barbed retorts.

Thanks
 
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