Tl;DrCan the speaker harmonic distortion decrease to 1% or less if SPL is lowered enough? Say 65 dB.
Another problem is rub 'n buzz, but in case the speaker must be considered defective.
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Tl;DrCan the speaker harmonic distortion decrease to 1% or less if SPL is lowered enough? Say 65 dB.
But if it's moving less distance at the same frequency, doesn't that also imply it's moving slower?Not so much slower but moving less.
I am assuming the reason for reduced FMD with a larger driver is less required excursion for a given SPL. Otherwise it wouldn't make sense, and yes, more ways means less IMD all other things being equal.
That does not jive with my memory of FMD studies and speakers designed to reduce it way back in the primordial past. It was more an issue with frequency distribution and cone flexure across the driver. Solutions were multiple smaller drivers, bandlimited drivers, flatter stiffer drivers, and perhaps reduced excursion but the latter was handled by multiple drivers and band limiting IIRC. Smaller drivers meant less area for lower frequency modes and displacement (movement) to modulate higher frequencies. There were a number of articles in the 1970's/1980's in various trade (AES, IEE, etc.) and consumer (e.g. Audio) magazines. I remember the solution mainly being a multitude of smaller drivers, but not all the details. Audio even ran an article on constructing a speaker designed to reduce FMD by using a bunch of small drivers IIRC.Not so much slower but moving less.
This all makes sense, I was only talking about doppler distortion, which (as I understand it) for any given bandwidth you can minimize but not eliminate, since the cone does need to move, after all.That does not jive with my memory of FMD studies and speakers designed to reduce it way back in the primordial past. It was more an issue with frequency distribution and cone flexure across the driver. Solutions were multiple smaller drivers, bandlimited drivers, flatter stiffer drivers, and perhaps reduced excursion but the latter was handled by multiple drivers and band limiting IIRC. Smaller drivers meant less area for lower frequency modes and displacement (movement) to modulate higher frequencies. There were a number of articles in the 1970's/1980's in various trade (AES, IEE, etc.) and consumer (e.g. Audio) magazines. I remember the solution mainly being a multitude of smaller drivers, but not all the details. Audio even ran an article on constructing a speaker designed to reduce FMD by using a bunch of small drivers IIRC.
I have not thought about it in a long time; I thought multi-driver systems and more advanced (steeper, higher-order) crossovers pretty much solved that problem?
As far as I remember the problem was stated as follows; bigger drivers have a directivity pattern with many lobes or 'fingers'. These lobes move together with the cone, hence output is modulated at any point in the sound field, especially at the rim of those fingers. A fallacy in not mentioning ferquency modulation, the inherent Doppler effect, resolved long ago with multiway speakers.That does not jive with my memory of FMD studies ... Solutions were multiple smaller drivers, bandlimited drivers, flatter stiffer drivers, and perhaps reduced excursion but the latter was handled by multiple drivers and band limiting IIRC.
Subjectively, that's a subjectivist claim and you cannot prove it. Your non-technical argument is over-simplified!I can confidently state that if you lower SPL enough, you will hear nothing at all!![]()
Reducing FMD usually requires smaller, not larger, drivers...
My thought is that if you kept SPL and bandwidth for the driver in question constant, but used a larger area, the cone would be moving more slowly for a given signal, and therefore FMD would decrease. But I might have confused myself here.
This is about the same thing, like an engine with a shorter stroke has a slower average piston speed at the same RPM. Moving a smaller distance at the same frequency means slower average speed.Not so much slower but moving less.
That makes sense because with a multitude of smaller drivers each one has smaller displacement of movement for any given SPL. You get the best of both worlds: benefits of high total surface area yet with smaller drivers where the motion can be better controlled.... I remember the solution mainly being a multitude of smaller drivers, but not all the details. Audio even ran an article on constructing a speaker designed to reduce FMD by using a bunch of small drivers IIRC.
I think this is probably because despite being "unbeatable" AFAIK doppler distortion is rarely the most significant source of distortion for a speaker. As @DonH56 mentions, stuff like breakup and other nonlinearities probably become audible much sooner.with conventional speakers I've also seen it go the other way, smaller drivers having lower distortion
The reason distortion increases with amplitude isn't necessarily limited to doppler effects. Generally speaking, electro-mechanical systems that are designed to be linear are never perfectly so. They tend to be most linear at/near their neutral/rest position and progressively less so when displaced further away from that position. Small displacements are linear, big displacements, less so.I think this is probably because despite being "unbeatable" AFAIK doppler distortion is rarely the most significant source of distortion for a speaker. As @DonH56 mentions, stuff like breakup and other nonlinearities probably become audible much sooner.
I think we are re-ventilating old, severely flawed concepts. First of all, regarding the original question, look and see my post #21 for a definite answer.The reason distortion increases with amplitude isn't necessarily limited to doppler effects. Generally speaking, electro-mechanical systems that are designed to be linear are never perfectly so. They tend to be most linear at/near their neutral/rest position and progressively less so when displaced further away from that position. Small displacements are linear, big displacements, less so.
FMD or Doppler distortion was "the new boogieman" for a while but has been inaudible for practical purposes for a long time (though no doubt there are some flawed designs out there). The voice coil/magnet system (including spider and surround) is nonlinear, becoming more so as excursion increases, and is the dominant distortion mechanism IME/IMO until the cone begins to break up and/or the voice coil physically clips (bottoms out). Not FMD, Doppler, crossover capacitors, wires... In recent history the biggest source of FMD is actually coupling from LF to HF drivers inside the box, one reason isolated internal boxes for mid and high drivers became popular, but IMO other sources still outweigh those effects. Except for those who can hear the virus on the flea on the hair of the dog...I think this is probably because despite being "unbeatable" AFAIK doppler distortion is rarely the most significant source of distortion for a speaker. As @DonH56 mentions, stuff like breakup and other nonlinearities probably become audible much sooner.
In early days Klipsch advertized their horns as virtually IM free. That cannot be said about tiny two ways of today, used with today's bass heavy music.FMD or Doppler distortion was "the new boogieman" for a while but has been inaudible for practical purposes for a long time (though no doubt there are some flawed designs out there).
I cannot agree, it remains linear if you look at a sufficiently small part of its characteristics. It doesn't need to be around rest position, see my post #21 for reference.The voice coil/magnet system (including spider and surround) is nonlinear, becoming more so as excursion increases, ...
Depends on what you consider relevant for the hearing.... and is the dominant distortion mechanism ...
What is the distortion generating mechanism? Did you mean 'surround'?... until the cone begins to break up ...
Again, what is the suggested mechanism to generate FM distortion?In recent history the biggest source of FMD is actually coupling from LF to HF drivers inside the box, ...
I agree, but do not think Doppler distortion is the primary distortion mechanism.In early days Klipsch advertized their horns as virtually IM free. That cannot be said about tiny two ways of today, used with today's bass heavy music.
My world is (was) analog circuit design, so "linear" always refers to a small region and nothing is completely, perfectly, 100% linear though certainly may be inaudible.I cannot agree, it remains linear if you look at a sufficiently small part of its characteristics. It doesn't need to be around rest position, see my post #21 for reference.
Again, do you think Doppler distortion is the most relevant distortion mechanism?Depends on what you consider relevant for the hearing.
No, standing waves on the cones causing nonlinear acoustic wave production. My old acoustics text book has a series of pictures and we managed to recreate the process in lab experiments for grad school. We used a strobe and motion picture (movie) camera as we did not have all the right pieces to create a laser interferometry system (they did that after I graduated).What is the distortion generating mechanism? Did you mean 'surround'?
Modulation of one cone (driver) via air pressure (sound waves, compression and rarefaction) coupling within the box, e.g. pressure from the woofer moving the tweeter cone.Again, what is the suggested mechanism to generate FM distortion?
Because I'm an old fart, researched this topic decades ago to my satisfaction, and it is not a subject in which I have a deep current interest. I leave that to guys like you and others on this thread with more experience, knowledge, and interest. I do remember when B&W was showing laser interferometry plots of cone breakup and such back in the 1980's, when I was looking into this, and it was very neat to see and talk with their designers about it.Klippel, famous maker of the Near Field Scanner, has it all, again, lookup his LASER beam: https://www.klippel.de/products/rd-system.html
The topic of speaker distortion is well understood in academia and in the industry. (Human perception, though, is not.) Why don't we discuss it in contemporary terms?
If you have data for a specific speaker, how it performs at, for example, 86dB and 96dB, sure. Now I interpreted TS's question generally, or I was too quick and read in a instead of the speaker, that is, in this case the JBL 305P.Tl;DrIt is mathematically granted to be so, yepp. Remember your calculus class - the Taylor approximation. It is used in science a lot in order to 'linearize' otherwise complex problems. Second and higher order contributions, beyond good plain 'linear', vanish more or less quickly with decreasing amplitude, depends. The more 'linear' the less distortion of any sort.
Another problem is rub 'n buzz, but in case the speaker must be considered defective.
I'm proficient in using maths as a tool, like many scientists (ref post #21). In explaining it, I'm not that good.If you have data for a specific speaker, how it performs at, for example, 86dB and 96dB, sure. Now I interpreted TS's question generally, or I was too quick and read in a instead of the speaker, that is, in this case the JBL 305P.
A speaker where nothing at all is measured to begin with, you of course know nothing about distortion at 65dB, just as you also know nothing about it at any other dB level. That in itself is perhaps a bit obvious to point out, so I shouldn't have interpreted TS's question as such.
As I said, and linke into here, speaker distortion is in all its glorious detail accessible via a LASER Klippel analyser - not just harminic distortion ... it is "all in" as you may say. The advent of THE Klippel was a disruptive change, that you may have missed. It is the (only) reason why we have those fantastic speaker chassis today. I said that all before ...Aside: I really don't care enough about this to enter some lengthy debate ...
I did not miss it, but my day job was high-speed (RF/mW) analog IC design, not audio, and certainly not speaker design. I never claimed to be an expert in everything and have stated speaker design is not my area of expertise. As far as I know I did not state falsehoods but responded to other posts. In any event I am out as this has gone far enough for me and devolving into personal attacks.As I said, and linke into here, speaker distortion is in all its glorious detail accessible via a LASER Klippel analyser - not just harminic distortion ... it is "all in" as you may say. The advent of THE Klippel was a disruptive change, that you may have missed. It is the (only) reason why we have those fantastic speaker chassis today. I said that all before ...
Tl;dr? Sorry, why then this debate from the sideline, re-ventilating falsehoods from 50 years back?