Can op amps now be as good as discrete circuitry?

[DVDdoug]

Way back in the 1970's I bought a cheap-little phono preamp (probably from Radio Shack). Even then, when op-amps were rather new, I was surprised to find discrete transistors inside. IIRC, only 4 transistors (2 per channel).

Later when I built my own, I used an LM382 which was a specialized "preamp" op-amp with some built-in resistors, making it easier to design the RIAA filter into the feedback loop. The datasheet shows the recommended phono preamp circuit.

I've built various audio-related circuits over the years and I don't think I've ever built anything without some kind of IC. It just makes everything easier and more reliably-predictable (and cheaper).

...I would NEVER build anything with tubes! But I did study tubes so I probably built something as part of a lab assignment. And when I was in high school somebody gave me a couple of tube power amps. One was a McIntosh, but it was mono. The other was either unbranded or a brand I'd never heard of. It was stereo but it had some noticeable high-frequency roll-off... I modified it with "random hacking" to improve the highs but I didn't have any equipment to measure the frequency response.

 

[Timcognito]

Lord, I'm starting to despise certain parts of this godforsaken industry for spreading FUD and general crap, this then spouted to tech-ignorant end-users by equally or more tech-ignorant dealers, who sell what they're either told to, or what gives them the most profit. YES, I was a 'dealer' once, but I made sure to get some half decent product knowledge and bore the pants off any manufacturer I was able to speak to - the extra 'knowledge' I learned often getting me into trouble...

Could you use a little smaller font? My progressive lens' could still read this.

 

[oleg87]

When used correctly they’re certainly better than whatever discrete design the median audiophile crank “engineer” peddling this FUD can slap together, as the measured performance of Burson stuff bears out. You could build something better even out of the venerable (and cheap as dirt) NE5532, let alone the cream of the modern audio opamp crop. That whole writeup is laughable BS.

 

[Pareto Pragmatic]

Picking the first I thought of: https://fosiaudio.com/pages/2-channel-amplifier-v3 - nothing beyond making a point of 'swappable op-amps.' From what I remember that's typical of other manufacturers too. Nothing about not using x,y,z because they will be unstable in this application, and no list of op-amps tested and known stable. They probably were actually designed with a specific op-amp in mind, despite what the marketing guff says.

Thanks for looking, and dredging your memory.

 

[scrubb]

Amir's review of these two Schiit Magni headphone amps clearly shows the discreet version is better... oh wait, never mind.

Schiit Magni 3+ and Heresy Headphone Amp Reviews

This is a review, detailed measurements and comparison of Schiit Magni 3+ and Heresy Headphone Amplifiers. It was kindly sent to me by the company. They both cost US $99 plus shipping from Schiit. The Magni 3+ is a discrete amplifier implementation whereas the Heresy uses integrated circuits...

www.audiosciencereview.com

 

[Haskil]

Amir's review of these two Schiit Magni headphone amps clearly shows the discreet version is better... oh wait, never mind.

Schiit Magni 3+ and Heresy Headphone Amp Reviews

This is a review, detailed measurements and comparison of Schiit Magni 3+ and Heresy Headphone Amplifiers. It was kindly sent to me by the company. They both cost US $99 plus shipping from Schiit. The Magni 3+ is a discrete amplifier implementation whereas the Heresy uses integrated circuits...

www.audiosciencereview.com

Amir wrote :
Rarely do we get an opportunity to test two design philosophies in electronics. Yet here we are with two amps with near identical power rating and output impedance trying to impress us. The one with discrete implementation has the story that "it is harder to design so it must be better." The Opamp IC design's story is that an integrate circuit can be far more optimized than a discrete design. And its drawback of low voltage operation, doesn't apply to headphone amplifiers.

The conclusion is simple: the opamp design is superior in every regard to the discrete implementation. It has far less distortion, much less hum and lower noise floor in general. The Heresy also comes with a power LED which I like.

The Magni 3+ is also very competent amplifier and subjectively kept up with Heresy. But my question is why would you buy it? What are you going to do with that "story" of it being discrete? Print it on a sign and put it on your wall? Or sit back and enjoy music knowing that the Heresy provides absolute, provably transparent reproduction whereas the Magni 3+ is very close but may not be there.

My choice is clear. I am happy to give a very strong recommendation to Schiit Magni Heresy. It has exemplary performance coupled with a solid metal

 

[pma]

Can op amps now be as good as discrete circuitry?​

In fact, the question should have been reversed.

 

[DSJR]

Could you use a little smaller font? My progressive lens' could still read this.

I did that as it's not at all on topic and wanted to vent anyway Apologies for not quite getting the humour here

 

[solderdude]

Well... this opamp:

indeed and quite measurably, performs much better than the one shown below.

But... maybe this one is even better ... in certain aspects ?

 

[danadam]

Late to the party,

Also late,

You also have found that the quote goes back as far as 2015?

About Us

web.archive.org

 

[Timcognito]

I did that as it's not at all on topic and wanted to vent anyway Apologies for not quite getting the humour here

Apologies for being a wise guy.

 

[boXem]

Discrete allows mixing different technologies (JFET, bipolar, CMOS) for the various stages of the opamp. It also allows inserting passive components like inductors.
Another advantage of the discrete approach is that one can get rid of the stupid SOIC-8 standard pinout.
That said, I am using only IC opamps.

 

[mhardy6647]

Amir's review of these two Schiit Magni headphone amps clearly shows the discreet version is better... oh wait, never mind.

Schiit Magni 3+ and Heresy Headphone Amp Reviews

This is a review, detailed measurements and comparison of Schiit Magni 3+ and Heresy Headphone Amplifiers. It was kindly sent to me by the company. They both cost US $99 plus shipping from Schiit. The Magni 3+ is a discrete amplifier implementation whereas the Heresy uses integrated circuits...

www.audiosciencereview.com

@scrubb -- bonus points for your Wall of Sound avatar!

 

[antcollinet]

Discrete circuits are custom built by Burson for specific applications rather than an op-amp's jack-of-all-trades-master-of-none specifications. The art of circuit design yields superior sound in every way in comparison to simple plug-a-chip engineering.10 Jul 2024

Let Burson come along and demonstrate with measurements how one of their discrete devices outperforms the stock device, in an already high performing DAC

And if in the unlikely case a measureable improvement results, let them demonstrate the audibility of this in a properly controlled blind test.

Then we might have something to talk about. Until then it is just story time.

 

[pjug]

Let Burson come along and demonstrate with measurements how one of their discrete devices outperforms the stock device, in an already high performing DAC

And if in the unlikely case a measureable improvement results, let them demonstrate the audibility of this in a properly controlled blind test.

Then we might have something to talk about. Until then it is just story time.

You want more than the obvious problems? Here is another one:

In an IC opamp the conductor layer that connects all the parts is formed by a layer of aluminium vapour that is thinner than the water vapour left on foggy windscreen. This poor conductor is the silent killer to musical texture.

And this aluminum vapor on silicone dice! (thanks for the laugh whoever noticed and posted that)

 

[johny_2000]

Just look at the measurements of the Audio-GD DACs and Headphone/Preamps with discrete output amplifiers here. No more words needed.

Audio-GD NFB-11.38 Performance Edition Measurements (DAC, Preamp & Headamp)

Audio-GD NFB-11.38 Performance Edition Measurements Hi folks, Here is my review, measurements-based, of the Audio-GD NFB-11.38 Performance Edition. This unit has been kindly loaned to me by @Audiophonics and costs 469€ tax incl. It is the last iteration to date of the NFB-11 DAC & headphones...

www.audiosciencereview.com

Audio-gd Master 7 Singularity Review (DAC)

This is a review and detailed measurements of the Audio-gd Master 7 Singularity DAC. It is on kind loan from a member. Can't quite find the cost for it but seems to have sold for $2,500 or so when it came out in 2018 (?). I must say, this is one of the heavies DACs I have measured: If you...

www.audiosciencereview.com

Measurements of Audio-GD HE-9 Headphone/Pre Amp

Yesterday, SF Express sent me a big box-I was still thinking "I haven't bought anything recently" until I saw the impressive Audio-GD logo on the box. Aha... The Audio-GDHE-9 Headphone/Pre Amp that netizens commissioned me to measure has arrived! Its huge size forced me to remove it from...

www.audiosciencereview.com

Review and Measurements of Audio-GD R8

In past measurements we have confirmed that even discrete R2R can perform very well. However, many devices using the same type of technology perform poorly, which is why I mentioned in my previous measurements that I instinctively hate discrete R2R. Today we have ushered in such a unit...

www.audiosciencereview.com

WolfX700 Measurement of Audio-GD NFB-6 Preamp/Headphone Amp

Recently, as the semester is coming to an end, I am very busy. In any case, the measurement should continue. I received a device to be measured from a friend. It was a pure analog device from Audio-GD, my impressive manufacturer. Someone said before that the DAC of Audio-GD I measured cannot...

www.audiosciencereview.com

Review and Measurements of Audio-gd DAC19 DAC

This is a review and detailed measurements of the Audio-gd DAC19 DAC. It is on kind loan from a member who sent me two of their DACs for review. The DAC19 costs US $640 plus shipping from the company's website. The design of DAC19 is similar to the rest of the Audio-gd line: Controls feel...

www.audiosciencereview.com

https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...d-measurements-of-audio-gd-nfb2-192-dac.7807/ - Fully discrete amp without any OPA
https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...-measurements-of-audio-gd-r2r11-dac-amp.5779/ - fully discrete transistors amplifiers

 

[Killingbeans]

Discrete circuits are custom built by Burson for specific applications rather than an op-amp's jack-of-all-trades-master-of-none specifications. The art of circuit design yields superior sound in every way in comparison to simple plug-a-chip engineering.10 Jul 2024

Well.. they don't actually custom build anything? People don't call Burson and ask them to design discrete circuits for specific applications?

As far as I can tell, they have only three discrete op-amps on their web page, and nowhere are they being descibed as solely applicable for a specific circuit. That means these Burson op-amps are every bit as "jack-of-all-trades-master-of-none" as any integrated op-amp designed for audio applications.

This maketing blurb seems outright dishonest.

If your make a product that has more advantages and less disadvantages than the competition, then simply show reliable data to prove those aspects.

Don't just make vague and questionable claims about your particular design philosophy having some inherent superior quality.

 

[sq225917]

Like anything it's down to application. Given the choice between a jfet opamp and a couple of pairs of zetex low noise, low rbb transistors for a mc input stage I'm taking the discrete option every time.

Ics are easier to get right, mostly outperform discrete in most applications, but sometimes....

 

[sam_adams]

Lord, I'm starting to despise certain parts of this godforsaken industry for spreading FUD and general crap, this then spouted to tech-ignorant end-users by equally or more tech-ignorant dealers, who sell what they're either told to, or what gives them the most profit. YES, I was a 'dealer' once, but I made sure to get some half decent product knowledge and bore the pants off any manufacturer I was able to speak to - the extra 'knowledge' I learned often getting me into trouble...

You don't have to whisper. You can say the quiet part out loud. You're among friends.

 

[jan.didden]

In an IC opamp the conductor layer that connects all the parts is formed by a layer of aluminium vapour that is thinner than the water vapour left on foggy windscreen. This poor conductor is the silent killer to musical texture.

Yes! That's why I replaced all the resistors in my preamp with 1 ohm resistors! No more poor conductors in my stuff!

Jan