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Can Loudspeakers Accurately Reproduce The Sound Of Real Instruments...and Do You Care?

FrantzM

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I can't find a single point in the above that I agree with.;)
I was attempting to answer, or at least demonstrate, some of the problems involved in the first part of the question which is;
Can Loudspeakers Accurately Reproduce The Sound Of Real Instruments...and Do You Care?
I'm not sure which part of the question you are responding to; maybe the last bit.
I'm just going to take one quote from your post which seems to be a summary of your points.
"We get a plausible version of the event."
You may, I don't. I get entertained.:)

Can you elaborate a bit? I would say the majority of us audiophiles seem to be quite entertained by reproduced music. For most us, reproduced music is our main way of listening to music. Actually the entire point of this board ( and all others from ASR to WBF :p) is to find ways to be even better entertained by reproduced music.
Speaking for me ... 99% of music I get entertained by, is reproduced. I go to concert when i travel (a lot) but it is perhaps 3 times a month .. I listen to music every day and get quite entertained by it, by reproduced music, through my headphones mostly and at times from my speakers... I know the reproduced is an ersatz, very far from the real thing but get entertained nonetheless... Personal but likely shared by most ...
 

FrantzM

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How could double bass or cello music not sound fantastic and realistic on these loudspeakers? /snark

View attachment 25473
Yeah! I hear you but these speakers on the bottom reproduce the saxophone much better .. Coltrane on these is heaven:
1556623695591.png


:cool:
 
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FrantzM

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Bjorn

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Directivity of speaker in reproduction plays a role, however. Pätynen wrote:

«The reproduced trumpet and trombone power re- sponses are particularly close to the real instrument power responses (see Fig. 4.3). Otherwise, the power response of the instruments is character- ized reasonably well by a frequency response in a single direction. The slight low-pass behavior observed e.g. with the woodwind instruments and the cello suggests that the applied loudspeaker is too directional».
As mentioned earlier, most instrument become very directional in highs. If you were to try to copy the beamwidth of an instrument, which would you choose? They vary a lot, so this would be pretty much futile.

Besides, what you hear to a large degree hear as an audience in a concert hall is total contribution of direct sound and reflected/diffuses energy from the boundaries. The way I see it, it's much more important that we copy the time domain behavior of a concert hall rather than the the specific dispersion of an instrument.

Some people wall into the trap here an believe that we have to add side wall contribution like the best concert halls, but they forget that the lateral contribution in a concert hall arrives far later in time than what you get in a small room. So the perceptual difference is huge. You have to do something else for the playback room.

However, no matter what we do in our homes we are in at the hands of the recording and mix here.
 

Shadrach

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Well the meaning of the question is open to interpretation. My interpretation is that it refers to loudspeakers in the context of how they are actually used, not some other use for them such as replacing the individual pipes and drums of a fairground organ - entertaining though such a contraption might be.

I am sorry that you can't suspend your disbelief when listening to recordings of music.
I can't spend too much time on this but I don't wish to appear rude by not responding.
It is a bit of a nuisance I'll admit.:)However, save your sympathy for something more worthwhile.
I'm very fond of classical music but I can't listen to it on a stereo system; there is just too much missing when compared to attending a concert.
I won't detail the shortfalls but take everything you can think of involved in a night out at a concert event and you'll get the idea.
My view of my stereo system is similar to my view of watching a movie on a screen. Some may think that's terrible and missing out on a wonderful experience. I've tried to think of an example that illustrates my point that many may know and I've picked the scene from the start of Saving Private Ryan. It's a battle scene. It's very well done. If one tries really hard one might even imagine what it might be like to be in such a situation. However, if it was completely convincing I would probably be cowering under a chair.
Some people do write on the various audio boards that their stereo is just like being at the event. From this I've inferred that for many this is the end goal for their listening enjoyment; the perfect recreation of the event.
I'm a little less ambitious and hopefully a little less deluded.
So, I'm happy tinkering around with my stereo (it's a hobby) and listening to pop music which is rather more suitable to two channel reproduction.
It's entertainment, not a time machine, or a perfect modeling system.
From one end of my system to the final pressure wave that reaches my ear there is not one single note of music. It is only when my brain processes the sound waves that the 'music' appears in my head. Strangely, I believe that this is true for all. it's just some do not want to believe this.
So, while some have got wonderful Hi Fi systems, I've got a a chain of signal processing boxes with varying degrees of accomplishment.
Add to the above the thousands of ABX tests I've participated in when working as an R&D engineer in an avionics company and my natural 'objectivist' leanings due to my academic training and work experience as an acoustics engineer and this may help you understand my viewpoint and why I am a member of an 'objectivist' based forum.
 

Cosmik

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Perhaps the question could be answered like this: yes, a speaker could, theoretically, cause exactly the same stimulation of the eardrum as would be experienced from sitting in the presence of the real instrument being played. Obviously an anechoic chamber for both the recording and the listening would make that a lot easier. But move a thousandth of an inch and the system would need a whole new calibration. Head tracking, restrictions on the environment in which the recording was made, etc. might even make it do-able in real time. But it would need a priori knowledge of everything to do with the recording and playback environments, sources and speakers, listener's head and ears.

So it's a theoretical possibility. It's like asking whether a photograph can perfectly reproduce the appearance of, say, a sphere. Well, it can cause precisely the same pattern of photons on the viewer's eyeball - as long as the person holds their head still in the right place. Two photographs might even be able to produce a perfect 3D rendition of it. But the photos don't actually 'know anything' about the shape of a sphere and they cannot respond correctly to the viewer's movement, shifts in focus of the eyeball and so on. They are not actually 'a sphere' and they haven't captured anything 'spherical'. So they can't perfectly reproduce 'the sphere' although they can perfectly reproduce the image of the sphere in very restricted circumstances.

Nevertheless, most humans can adapt to the missing dimensions and fill them in with educated guesses.

This reminds me of the only computer game I ever got expert at: Colin McRae's Rally 2. This goes back quite a few years, and the graphics were beautiful but simple. In the Scandinavian stages (my favourite), the pine trees were actually 2D 'cardboard cut-outs' and as you got close to them, you could see that they were simply programmed to always face you, literally rotating on their trunks as you drove by. It worked: always 'plausible' but not 'accurate'.

Stereo audio is similar. If you get up and walk around, the image does not behave dynamically as though you are at the venue (if it is a single venue that actually exists), but when you stop moving it is perfectly 'plausible'.
 
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MattHooper

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I've often used the analogy of Saving Private Ryan and other similar movies.

In home theater there seems to be an ongoing desire to increase "realism" via increasing dynamic range, volume output.

But no sane person actually would WANT to have a sound system ACTUALLY produce the sound of being in a battle. The sound of being near an explosion going off. The sound of being just outside a fighter jet flying through the sky in a fight with another jet. It would go beyond unpleasant to actually destroying your hearing!

For the same reason, when I put on Van Halen, I don't want the actual impact of a Van Halen concert occurring in my house. I like my hearing, thank you very much!

Instead, what I am going for is a comfortable illusion.


Like watching a movie.


If you pay attention it's easy to see how watching a 2 dimensional image on a big screen with sound departs from reality. But if you don't demand exact reality, but rather seek *some characteristics* of plausibility allowing you to sink in to the illusion, that's all you need. You can simultaneously talk about what aspects of a movie are "more realistic than not" - acting, writing, sets, special effect etc - and thus have reality as a barometer, while not making the demand one sees a perfect reproduction of reality. We don't really *want* a perfect reproduction of reality.


The analogy to listening to music at home isn't perfect, but close enough. If it were possible, it may be desirable by some to have a piano, or cello, singing voice or whatever be perfectly reproduced in their home. But as a general overview, I think the movie analogy is close enough.


I actually don't want the sound of real drum kit in terms of volume and impact every time I put on a piece of music. That would be obnoxious, and even if I had a system that could produce that realistic impact, I'd rarely if ever avail myself of it. I'll already be compromising reality by using an "unrealistic" lower playback level. As is the case with almost everything else I listen to.


What I want, though, are some of the aspects of real sounds that I love: the timbrel qualities of a cello, voice, different parts of a drum kit etc. A similar dynamic "feel," even if in diminished form, of what a drummer and bass player are doing, the micro and macro dynamics that make an acoustic or classical guitar sound like it's being played by a person not a sampler. Where appropriate, a spatial representation that, even if it would fail direct comparison to the real thing, gives me an impression of individual players performing for me. A timbrel and spatial representation of an orchestra that can remind me of the real thing, that gives me some of what I love about orchestral instruments.


That actually extends to electronic music in my case. It's often taken as a shibboleth that unlike acoustic sounds, electronic music has no real-life reference. Often it does in certain ways. If you know the sound of certain guitar amps, you'll recognize that sound when you hear it reproduced.
In a broader sense, as a (sometimes) keyboard player, I've always been struck by the fact that playing almost any keyboard, either using headphones or a decent direct amp, sounds far richer, more nuanced than almost all that ends up in recordings. There are numerous reasons why a keyboard sound will undergo a diminution or shaving away of it's quality or texture once it lands on a finished recording. But it's still something I always notice. And even within that context, I will note that some speaker systems seem to deliver back more of the tonal richness and nuance of keyboard sounds than others.
 

DonH56

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One of the best things that happened to me as I got a little older and with far less time to spend listening is that I became less analytical and learned (mostly) to just enjoy the music (movie, whatever). I have to do the same thing playing trumpet; there is a time to analyze, and a time to just put everything out of your head but the music and enjoy it (listening or playing). Destroyed any audiophile cred, natch, but I still focus when I want to, and the rest of the time just enjoy what I've got.
 

Kal Rubinson

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I've often used the analogy of Saving Private Ryan and other similar movies.

In home theater there seems to be an ongoing desire to increase "realism" via increasing dynamic range, volume output.

But no sane person actually would WANT to have a sound system ACTUALLY produce the sound of being in a battle. The sound of being near an explosion going off. The sound of being just outside a fighter jet flying through the sky in a fight with another jet. It would go beyond unpleasant to actually destroying your hearing!
An aside: I attended a press event for Marantz some years back for the unveiling of their new line of AVRs and DVD players in discrete multichannel and, with great pride, they subjected me to the opening scenes of "Saving Private Ryan" played at an offensive level. Afterwards, someone asked me "Wasn't that realistic?" and I replied. "How the f*** would I know? I've never been in war."
 

cjfrbw

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"Can Loudspeakers Accurately Reproduce The Sound Of Real Instruments...and Do You Care?"

No and No.
 
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MattHooper

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"Can Loudspeakers Accurately Reproduce The Sound Of Real Instruments...and Do You Care?Can Loudspeakers Accurately Reproduce The Sound Of Real Instruments...and Do You Care?"

No and No.

May I ask: What do you care about? What do you want out of your sound system?
 

Duke

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If the designer has a good appreciation for and understanding of psychoacoustics (so that he focuses on issues that really matter), along with good tools and good technical skills, and an adequate budget to work with, he should be able to come pretty close to recreating the perception of hearing an actual performance. But achieving absolutes like "accurately reproducing the sound of real instruments" is the province of marketing departments, not engineering departments.
 

watchnerd

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What was missing was...timbral realism.

Your problem starts way before reproduction during the recording process, as all microphones introduce colorations to the sound.

Every recording engineer I've ever worked with knows that recording is an artistic endeavor that attempts to evoke the emotional essence of the original performance in a simulated setting (home stereo or similar).

In addition, raw, uncompressed, un-normalized, live mic feeds are not actually what most people want for home reproduction.

The best you can hope for is to hear something close to what the recording / mixing / mastering engineers heard on their monitors.

This idea of an 'absolute sound' of a live concert setting, as propagated by Harry Pearson, is absolute hogwash and simple compare and contrast between mic locations and in-hall listener locations deconstructs the fallacy.
 

watchnerd

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What I do care about is that, I'm enjoying the sounds of the reproduction, and I most certainly do... :cool:

I've placed an order for one of the new Steinway player pianos.

I expect it to redefine my reference for reproduction.
 

watchnerd

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As an additional note:

ROI of chasing the dragon for the ultimate in home audio reproduction is pretty bad.

I just singed up for the Sunday matinee series for the Seattle Symphony. 8 concerts, 2 adults, 12th row orchestra center, ~$1500.

That's less than 1/10th of the cost of my home stereo system and it will obviously sound fully lifelike and real with perfect timbral accuracy....given that it is real.
 

Blumlein 88

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As an additional note:

ROI of chasing the dragon for the ultimate in home audio reproduction is pretty bad.

I just singed up for the Sunday matinee series for the Seattle Symphony. 8 concerts, 2 adults, 12th row orchestra center, ~$1500.

That's less than 1/10th of the cost of my home stereo system and it will obviously sound fully lifelike and real with perfect timbral accuracy....given that it is real.
I don't know. Seems such real events don't image that well to me. Not much front to back depth either. ;)
 

Blumlein 88

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An aside: I attended a press event for Marantz some years back for the unveiling of their new line of AVRs and DVD players in discrete multichannel and, with great pride, they subjected me to the opening scenes of "Saving Private Ryan" played at an offensive level. Afterwards, someone asked me "Wasn't that realistic?" and I replied. "How the f*** would I know? I've never been in war."

I imagine the part in the opening scenes on the beach where explosions cause temporary hearing loss to be pretty real.
 

cjfrbw

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May I ask: What do you care about? What do you want out of your sound system?
The sound becomes artificial as soon as it hits the diaphragm of a microphone. There are the usual caveats about mastering room manipulation, and how that does not translate exactly into a home stereo under any circumstances.

The brain is amazing because it can synthesize a simulacrum at all.

I regard my stereo as a player piano playing a scroll (recording). Not only does it not sound exactly like the original event, nor can it, the same scroll will sound different on every system it is played on.

I strive to make my player piano as pleasing and authentic as possible, but have no clue how to make it sound like the original because I have no way of knowing that through the various processing filters.

Does this mean there is no value in my experience of the music? Not at all. It's close enough to move me, please me and endlessly fascinate me. It also gives me a pretty good idea about many attributes of the performance which are close enough to original intent albeit imperfect in all the ways we know artificial sound reproduction to be imperfect..

So no, it can't be accurate to the sound of the real instruments because it is disembodied and there is no true reference to the original, it is only a proxy. Do I care? No, because it does not undermine the value of my experience, which is necessarily unique to my system and likely different from the same program played on every other system.
 
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