Can I get Sonic Serenity in an Open Back for less than $2500?

[jonwb]

Quality build, Comfortable, Sub-bass extension, 3D Imaging, Soundstage... the whole package.

Is there a headphone out there that fits this criteria, or do I need to bite the bullet and spend more the $2500?

 

[listener650]

Have you tried the HD 800S? Especially if you're willing to EQ, I think its the obvious answer to what you're asking for... or at least the first place I'd look.

 

[jonwb]

I'm afraid I haven't thanks. I've had the 650s and recently the 560s. I guess I'm worried that a $2k headphone released 10+ yrs ago may not have the same spark as one with newer technology.

 

[drewdawg999]

Have you considered the Mod House Tungsten? It should be able to bring serenity though wait list is currently like a year. Plus you need special consideration for amp.

I'm actually happy with OG Hifiman HE-400, with sheepskin pads newly slapped on. Sounds better than my old Audeze LCD-2 to my ears, though comfort and build quality aren't that great. They're somehow still working, though I tend to baby my gear.

Also heard Verum 2 is nice, and they were reviewed here positively.

 

[solderdude]

Quality build, Comfortable, Sub-bass extension, 3D Imaging, Soundstage... the whole package.

Is there a headphone out there that fits this criteria, or do I need to bite the bullet and spend more the $2500?

The thing with your question is that '3D imaging' and 'Soundstage' are not so much a property of the headphone but rather the 'imagination' of your brain.
So while certain people may well hear 'great soundstage' and 'sounds in front or all around them others may always hear left, middle and right within their head.
Also there is all kinds of DSP trickery which may or may not help your brain to 'accept the illusion' sounds are coming from the front and are not blasted directly in your ear from the side.

The thing with sub-bass extension is that there are many headphones that can actually reach 5Hz 'flat'. BUT this is seal dependent.
Bass extension thus not only is headphone but also seal dependent.
Then there is this thing called perception. What some people call 'bass extension' others mean 'elevated low bass'.
Bass levels are also quite listening level dependent.

Then we have 'comfort' what someone finds comfortable others may not. For instance I hate shoving things in my ear (IEM's) where others find it great to wear them.
Some prefer very little clamping force, others like it higher so it stays on the head when moving. Weight is another thing some don't mind others hate heavy headphones.
Pad material.. some prefer leather, pleather, velour, fabric, foam or whatnot. What one person likes another may not.
So what is comfortable to one person may not be for someone else.

Quality build... do you mean longevity of say the consumables (headband- and ear-padding), or that you can toss it on the floor and drag it behind you and still not breaks or that you don't want any components to 'snap' under normal usage ?

Then there is the question of around-ear, on-ear, in ear, wired, wireless, open, closed,

Of course there will be tons of people posting their personal favorites which may or may not help you.

What I can do is tell me my favorites, but no 3D promises as all headphones always sound 'in my head' no matter what I do.

With EQ: HD800(S), requires a small amplifier though, not directly from a dongle.
Without EQ: FiiO(Jade AUdio) JT7 is not bad, FiiO FT7 with a filter is even 'better' in some aspects.

Succes with your search... I have been on one for over 10 years.
Nothing as personal as a headphone ... comfort, sound, price all do not mean, or lead to, the same choice for everyone.

So the answer to your question is yes and no.
There are folks that find their ideal sound in a $ 25.- IEM and there are those that form out $6k or more.
It is impossible to say what, in the end, will tick your boxes and what you are willing to spend on it.

 

[listener650]

I'm afraid I haven't thanks. I've had the 650s and recently the 560s. I guess I'm worried that a $2k headphone released 10+ yrs ago may not have the same spark as one with newer technology.

The thing is, there really hasn't been much technological advancement from "newer" headphones in that price bracket. Much of what's available is very, very similar to what was coming out when HD 800S was released.

If anything the HD 800S is still one of, if not the most acoustically & technologically impressive designs on the market. It's engineering is considerably more thoughtful/complex than the Hifiman, Abyss, Meze, etc. flagships.

The only truly novel development in that range since HD 800S's release—at least, as far as implementations of tuning technology goes—is @Dan Clark's work with the AMTS. That said, I would argue what makes the DCA headphones great options in terms of stock frequency response might make them a bit less ideal than HD 800S as an EQ platform (the acoustic openness, superior drivability, and comfort of the HD 800 is pretty hard to beat for this use case).

 

[jonwb]

The thing with your question is that '3D imaging' and 'Soundstage' are not so much a property of the headphone but rather the 'imagination' of your brain.
So while certain people may well hear 'great soundstage' and 'sounds in front or all around them others may always hear left, middle and right within their head.
Also there is all kinds of DSP trickery which may or may not help your brain to 'accept the illusion' sounds are coming from the front and are not blasted directly in your ear from the side.

The thing with sub-bass extension is that there are many headphones that can actually reach 5Hz 'flat'. BUT this is seal dependent.
Bass extension thus not only is headphone but also seal dependent.
Then there is this thing called perception. What some people call 'bass extension' others mean 'elevated low bass'.
Bass levels are also quite listening level dependent.

Then we have 'comfort' what someone finds comfortable others may not. For instance I hate shoving things in my ear (IEM's) where others find it great to wear them.
Some prefer very little clamping force, others like it higher so it stays on the head when moving. Weight is another thing some don't mind others hate heavy headphones.
Pad material.. some prefer leather, pleather, velour, fabric, foam or whatnot. What one person likes another may not.
So what is comfortable to one person may not be for someone else.

Quality build... do you mean longevity of say the consumables (headband- and ear-padding), or that you can toss it on the floor and drag it behind you and still not breaks or that you don't want any components to 'snap' under normal usage ?

Then there is the question of around-ear, on-ear, in ear, wired, wireless, open, closed,

Of course there will be tons of people posting their personal favorites which may or may not help you.

What I can do is tell me my favorites, but no 3D promises as all headphones always sound 'in my head' no matter what I do.

With EQ: HD800(S), requires a small amplifier though, not directly from a dongle.
Without EQ: FiiO(Jade AUdio) JT7 is not bad, FiiO FT7 with a filter is even 'better' in some aspects.

Succes with your search... I have been on one for over 10 years.
Nothing as personal as a headphone ... comfort, sound, price all do not mean, or lead to, the same choice for everyone.

So the answer to your question is yes and no.
There are folks that find their ideal sound in a $ 25.- IEM and there are those that form out $6k or more.
It is impossible to say what, in the end, will tick your boxes and what you are willing to spend on it.

Thanks solderdude for your take... much appreciated. When it comes to build quality, that would be most important, and the reason why I sense the <$2500 zone should get me something well-made, well-liked, sub-extended and possibly endgame (if that exists?). I could be wrong? I've auditioned several mid-tier Hifiman models and despite some of them sounding very good, the build quality always forces me to either sell or return them. However, the EQ-able sub bass in their planars is really inviting!

 

[jonwb]

The thing is, there really hasn't been much technological advancement from "newer" headphones in that price bracket. Much of what's available is very, very similar to what was coming out when HD 800S was released.

If anything the HD 800S is still one of, if not the most acoustically & technologically impressive designs on the market. It's engineering is considerably more thoughtful/complex than the Hifiman, Abyss, Meze, etc. flagships.

The only truly novel development in that range since HD 800S's release—at least, as far as implementations of tuning technology goes—is @Dan Clark's work with the AMTS. That said, I would argue what makes the DCA headphones great options in terms of stock frequency response might make them a bit less ideal than HD 800S as an EQ platform (the acoustic openness, superior drivability, and comfort of the HD 800 is pretty hard to beat for this use case).

Hey thanks for that information Listener. Interesting history for this unit. I guess I was under the impression that a newer planar would surpass any dynamic at this point in time. I ran the HD800s with the SoundGuys target and I was glad to see that it's nearly perfect up to 7kHz. I just wonder if the improved sub-bass would slam as much as a Hifiman? Kind of important after experiencing planar bass

 

[Selkirks]

I've auditioned several mid-tier Hifiman models and despite some of them sounding very good, the build quality always forces me to either sell or return them.

It took me trying all of the Hifiman models up to the HE1000 to be satisfied with comfort, build and sound quality. I had some type of issue with every other model, even if they were well regarded by others. Finding the right fit with any headphone is a big part of serenity IMO.

 

[solderdude]

Thanks solderdude for your take... much appreciated. When it comes to build quality, that would be most important, and the reason why I sense the <$2500 zone should get me something well-made, well-liked, sub-extended and possibly endgame (if that exists?). I could be wrong? I've auditioned several mid-tier Hifiman models and despite some of them sounding very good, the build quality always forces me to either sell or return them. However, the EQ-able sub bass in their planars is really inviting!

The thing is that every headphone is a compromise.
Lightweight and sturdy can go hand in hand. For instance take the HD25. lightweight, you can throw them on the floor and whatnot. Every part was/is available. This is an old headphone. Take the HD580 ... other than the contact spring, paint jobs and foam Sennheiser headphones have not improved much. In fact ... when we see pricing of those long lasting products those have not inflated as much as many other products.

Take a brand like OLLO that makes headphones for the professional world. Every part is replaceable, you can literally play soccer with it. Nice materials being used. Yet they are still compromises in certain ways.
Higher end headphones usually have more exotic materials in them and maybe a more luxurious feel. These are usually treated more careful (because of the price) but thinner and more lightweight often comes with fragility.
Foam usually deteriorates, wood can crack, metals can break, plastics can break/wear nothing lives forever. Parts eventually stop being made and stock runs out.
Silent revisions often happen over years of production. Either through lack of materials being available, cost cutting or 'improvements' (which can go in every direction).

The one person that advanced planar drivers is indeed Dan Clark. @Igor_S (Verum) who managed to DIY some headphone drivers and start a brand in Ukraine. It is amazing he can still deliver them.
Take Lily Audio (@tonyng) who made a very lightweight and comfortable headphone which is also possible while using any decent dynamic driver.
Take HEDD for instance ... they make unique headphone (drivers) yet the newest and most affordable one is a dynamic driver. Sure a different membrane but many headphone drivers have different membranes.
Fosi's attempt in making the i5 was heading in the right direction in many ways. So is FiiO b.t.w. but these products have their issues and compromises too.
Will there still be spare parts in 5 years time ?
AKG, Sennheiser, Koss, Beyerdynamic, Shure, audio-technica and Audeze often still provide parts for popular products even well past 10 years of first production. Not all brands will do that.
It helps with 'longevity' and could be called 'build quality'.
Luxury brands produce luxury items at high prices but are they so much better in build/sound than certain cheaper mass produced headphones ?

Exotic materials may or may not be a good idea and may or may not cost a lot of money to produce and/or use. But do they really contribute to sound, sturdiness or longevity ? They sure will hike up the price and maybe even the profit margin. Will they sell many ? Will they recoup their investment ? Isn't a big part of the flagships marketing ?

All of these headphones are still compromises. Price, manufacturing costs/tooling, materials being available, profit margins, research/engineering, even vision of designers/manufacturers help shape a specific design. All of them will fail or be replaced with 'something better' over time. How much time depends on many factors.
And let's be honest. Does is really cost that much more to produce a Susvara compared to a Sundara ? Is the price difference in line with build quality and sound quality ?

Headphones are compromises. Well .. that's actually true for nearly every product.
All of them sound different, have different comfort and their downsides.
The fact that all of them sound different and feel different and exist in all price ranges is testimony they are all compromises.
Who is 'the best' at this and why ?
The fact that all of them sound different is because they are a compromise.

It is a market... manufacturers making 'something' and buyers having a preference for a 'story' or an actual product. A compromise.

Buy something (a compromise) you like/prefer at a price you can afford. There is no ideal product but there are many compromises in almost any price range where an owner can be happy with.

One can get sonic serenity at almost any price point but you will have to compromise.

Sorry for the rant...

 

[Redacted]

With $2500 headphones, the attraction is more about spending the $2500, and not much to do with whether the 'phones are comfy, sound good and robust!

 

[jonwb]

It took me trying all of the Hifiman models up to the HE1000 to be satisfied with comfort, build and sound quality. I had some type of issue with every other model, even if they were well regarded by others. Finding the right fit with any headphone is a big part of serenity IMO.

Thanks for that Selkirks. Yes, the HE1000 series has its endorsements. Did you try any of the Arya models before finally settling on the HE1000?

 

[Selkirks]

Thanks for that Selkirks. Yes, the HE1000 series has its endorsements. Did you try any of the Arya models before finally settling on the HE1000?

I had the Arya Stealth before the HE1000 Stealth. The build looks very close but the Arya Stealth had a tighter clamping force, a head in a vise experience I associate with uncomfortable Hifiman cans . In my listening experience the Arya was more harsh on the top end and had less lower bass. Minor quirks but enough for me to move on, comfort and listening fatigue is a dealbreaker.

 

[jonwb]

I had the Arya Stealth before the HE1000 Stealth. The build looks very close but the Arya Stealth had a tighter clamping force, a head in a vise experience I associate with uncomfortable Hifiman cans . In my listening experience the Arya was more harsh on the top end and had less lower bass. Minor quirks but enough for me to move on, comfort and listening fatigue is a dealbreaker.

Ok thanks.. I'll keep that one in mind.

 

[Invisiblestorm]

Yeah, you don’t really need to go past $2.5k to get something that checks most of those boxes, but you do have to accept that no single open-back nails everything perfectly. The closest “all-rounder” under that budget is probably something like the Arya Organic, which gives you a massive stage and strong imaging with surprisingly solid sub-bass for a planar, though the build isn’t luxury-tier.

 

[Invisiblestorm]

The HD800S is still unmatched for sheer soundstage and pinpoint imaging, but it doesn’t deliver that deep sub-bass slam unless you EQ it. The LCD-X goes the opposite direction with excellent bass extension and technical performance, but a more intimate stage. If you want better build and a more natural, cohesive presentation, the ZMF line sits in a nice middle ground. So no, you don’t have to spend more than $2.5k, but the “perfect” combo of everything you listed is still something you assemble through tradeoffs rather than find in one headphone.

 

[Redacted]

and technical performance, but a more intimate stage. If you want better build and a more natural, cohesive presentation,

Can you show us the data on this ?