Can Dirac overcome the Onkyo RZ50 shortcomings? X3700H instead?

[drfrink24]

Given the stellar reviews of the X3700H (sinad, amplifiers) vs. the RZ50 sub-par (sinad, clipping at 4ohm loads) reviews:

Would a fully tweaked (using MultiEQ app) X3700H outperform a RZ50, all else being equal? Or is Dirac such an advancement in technology that it can help the RZ50 sound equal to or better? I do run an external amplifier on my main front channels, which do present a 4ohm load.

I would also consider (given the price difference) of running a 5 channel OSB amplifier (or equiv) so that the only driven channels by the RZ50 would be the Atmos height and rear surround.

 

[peng]

Given the stellar reviews of the X3700H (sinad, amplifiers) vs. the RZ50 sub-par (sinad, clipping at 4ohm loads) reviews:

Would a fully tweaked (using MultiEQ app) X3700H outperform a RZ50, all else being equal? Or is Dirac such an advancement in technology that it can help the RZ50 sound equal to or better? I do run an external amplifier on my main front channels, which do present a 4ohm load.

I would also consider (given the price difference) of running a 5 channel OSB amplifier (or equiv) so that the only driven channels by the RZ50 would be the Atmos height and rear surround.

You should be able to tweak the 3700 to get better than +/- 2 dB (or better) 20 to 120 Hz or higher at 1/12th smoothing if that's good enough for you.

The RZ50's SINAD is good but I would like to know if Amir ran that test with the internal amps disconnected. If not, then it is really good.

 

[hmt]

Given the stellar reviews of the X3700H (sinad, amplifiers) vs. the RZ50 sub-par (sinad, clipping at 4ohm loads) reviews:

Would a fully tweaked (using MultiEQ app) X3700H outperform a RZ50, all else being equal? Or is Dirac such an advancement in technology that it can help the RZ50 sound equal to or better? I do run an external amplifier on my main front channels, which do present a 4ohm load.

I would also consider (given the price difference) of running a 5 channel OSB amplifier (or equiv) so that the only driven channels by the RZ50 would be the Atmos height and rear surround.

Since you are running an external amp for the Fronts the issues with the amps of the Onkyo do not really matter. Imo dirac is doing a slightly better job since it might yield a higher resolution of filters so the result is a smoother FR in the Bass region. Imo the app is not compareable to dirac since it is too cumbersome to set target curves.

 

[Miker 1102]

You should be able to tweak the 3700 to get better than +/- 2 dB (or better) 20 to 120 Hz or higher at 1/12th smoothing if that's good enough for you.

The RZ50's SINAD is good but I would like to know if Amir ran that test with the internal amps disconnected. If not, then it is really good.

My wishs room correction without the downsample. Why not have one hdmi that is an audible dac. Bryston has a good hdmi dac. I would love one good digital channel where I could have a two channel experience without the bypass or having to use a sperate dac on a 2k dollar avr. That's what a Marantz should be..not a "warm sound"

 

[abdo123]

No I don’t think half the power is worth Dirac.

Not to mention Onyko announced bankruptcy.

 

[dlaloum]

Given the stellar reviews of the X3700H (sinad, amplifiers) vs. the RZ50 sub-par (sinad, clipping at 4ohm loads) reviews:

Would a fully tweaked (using MultiEQ app) X3700H outperform a RZ50, all else being equal? Or is Dirac such an advancement in technology that it can help the RZ50 sound equal to or better? I do run an external amplifier on my main front channels, which do present a 4ohm load.

I would also consider (given the price difference) of running a 5 channel OSB amplifier (or equiv) so that the only driven channels by the RZ50 would be the Atmos height and rear surround.

SINAD of the RZ50 pre-outs are pretty much identical to the X3700 - and that's before the X3700's DAC downgrade.

 

[dlaloum]

You should be able to tweak the 3700 to get better than +/- 2 dB (or better) 20 to 120 Hz or higher at 1/12th smoothing if that's good enough for you.

The RZ50's SINAD is good but I would like to know if Amir ran that test with the internal amps disconnected. If not, then it is really good.

I don't believe there is any way to disconnect the RZ50's amps... - but Amir did say his pre tests were with no speakers connected.

 

[dlaloum]

No I don’t think half the power is worth Dirac.

Not to mention Onyko announced bankruptcy.

Onkyo Japan announced Bankruptcy - but the Audio/AV busines is no longer owned by Onkyo Japan, it is owned by Voxx (77%) and Sharp (23%) - both of which are in good financial health. - the Voxx/Sharp partnership owe Onkyo Japan licencing fees.. that's all.

 

[usersky]

I went with DIRAC after 2 versions of Audyssey and will never look back. I would trade 10dB of SINAD any day for the difference I got upgrading from Audyssey to DIRAC, at least in my soundwise hostile listening space.

 

[voodooless]

Not to mention Onyko announced bankruptcy.

What bankruptcy? Since June 2021 Onkyo was bought by Voxx. This also includes all of the Pioneer brands.

Nevertheless, there is funky stuff going on. The TX-RZ50 cannot be found on the European Onkyo website. Nor can I find any of the new Dirac-enabled Pioneers on the Pioneer EU site. Also can't find any in local webshops.

 

[simple6]

Nevertheless, there is funky stuff going on. The TX-RZ50 cannot be found on the European Onkyo website. Nor can I find any of the new Dirac-enabled Pioneers on the Pioneer EU site. Also can't find any in local webshops.

They are launching this spring I think. Some EU prices have already been announced by local distributors.

 

[dlaloum]

What bankruptcy? Since June 2021 Onkyo was bought by Voxx. This also includes all of the Pioneer brands.

Nevertheless, there is funky stuff going on. The TX-RZ50 cannot be found on the European Onkyo website. Nor can I find any of the new Dirac-enabled Pioneers on the Pioneer EU site. Also can't find any in local webshops.

Onkyo Japan started Bankruptcy proceedings last week....

 

[abdo123]

Onkyo Japan announced Bankruptcy - but the Audio/AV busines is no longer owned by Onkyo Japan, it is owned by Voxx (77%) and Sharp (23%) - both of which are in good financial health. - the Voxx/Sharp partnership owe Onkyo Japan licencing fees.. that's all.

Thank you for sharing I didn’t know that.

 

[voodooless]

Onkyo Japan started Bankruptcy proceedings last week....

I guess that is then the empty shell that was left behind after the acquisition by Voxx.

 

[Flak]

No I don’t think half the power is worth Dirac.

Not an expert on this subject but it seems to me that steady-state test signals are not necessarily representative of the amp capabilities with the actual dynamic content of music/movies.
If not investigated yet that would be interesting...

 

[peng]

My wishs room correction without the downsample. Why not have one ave hdmi I put that is an audible dac. Brayton has a good hdmi dac. I would love one good digital channel where I could have a two channel experience without the bypass or having to use a sperate dac on a 2k dollar avr. That's what a Marantz should be..not a "warm sound"

The Marantz "warm sound" talks started back in the old days, probably as early as the 70's so I don't think it has to do with the slight roll off due to their DAC reconstruction filter. Then if you look at their analog signal path, their main (probably only) difference that can be seen in comparing some service manuals such as the X4400/4500H vs SR7012/13 is the HDAM that is just a unity gain buffer that is not even there for the slimline series.

I believe most (not all, because there are going to be exceptions) of those who continue to hear that "warm sound" is due to expectation bias, but I won't argue with anyone who claimed hearing it because if it is based on their subjective impression. Whoever started that from the old days deserved a huge bonus for his/her very successful marketing campaign, based on internet talks, I suspect the ratio of people who went with Marantz for the warm sound hearsay to those who avoided it and went with something supposedly designed for neutrality of bright sound is probably at least 2:1. There isn't any such surveys so it is just my guess.

 

[peng]

SINAD of the RZ50 pre-outs are pretty much identical to the X3700 - and that's before the X3700's DAC downgrade.

That is just one test, if you compare all the other tests you will see that the X3700H's is much better overall but the differences may not audible under normal use conditions. Too bad Amir did not include the IMD measurement, that is important enough to be always included imo..

 

[peng]

Onkyo Japan started Bankruptcy proceedings last week....

It happened not long ago, so is it happening now again, and is it bankruptcy or bankruptcy protection like the US's chapter 11?

 

[Miker 1102]

The Marantz "warm sound" talks started back in the old days, probably as early as the 70's so I don't think it has to do with the slight roll off due to their DAC reconstruction filter. Then if you look at their analog signal path, their main (probably only) difference that can be seen in comparing some service manuals such as the X4400/4500H vs SR7012/13 is the HDAM that is just a unity gain buffer that is not even there for the slimline series.

I believe most (not all, because there are going to be exceptions) of those who continue to hear that "warm sound" is due to expectation bias, but I won't argue with anyone who claimed hearing it because if it is based on their subjective impression. Whoever started that from the old days deserved a huge bonus for his/her very successful marketing campaign, based on internet talks, I suspect the ratio of people who went with Marantz for the warm sound hearsay to those who avoided it and went with something supposedly designed for neutrality of bright sound is probably at least 2:1. There isn't any such surveys so it is just my guess.

I have spent this year really listening to the AVRs. I liked Sony the best out of Maranatz, Pioneer w/Dirac, Denon w/ audessy 32 xt, and Yamaha. Sony and Dirac calibrated my speakers the same way..literally. Dirac does not measure distance tho..its like in response time or something. Anyway, I kept the Denon 4400 based on the reviews here and it's sounds good but definitely lacks with music. I really though the RZ was going to be the good middle of the road choice but it sounds like it has the same problems as the Pioneer as 305..poor back channels, stereo and dap problems. Any advice? My wife is a lovely person but she wouldn't understand a stereo that is expensive as a car?

 

[peng]

I can see that people are comparing test results with the several Denon measured on ASR, but so far only the preamp/dac test results have been cited. It has often been cited that IMD is more objectionable to THD so I would like to see the IMD results of the RZ50 if Amir can still do it, but I bet he returned the unit already.

In my opinion, we also need to compare the following, unless the SINAD for the preamp/DAC results of DUT is so bad that it can be ruled out without even considering the other tests. That would then depend on what number one considers as disqualifying bad, would that be 75 dB or lower? If it is 75 dB, then the Marantz AVRs and the AV7705 would be marginal.

Anyway the following are the ones we can compare the RZ50 with the X3700H:

I would like to compare their IMD tests too but unfortunately Amir did not do it for the Onkyo.

Since most would agree that for normal use in a small to medium size room using speakers with average sensitivity speakers, the one that has lower THD+N at below 1 V is probably important to compare the two with. So at least on paper, that is audibility threshold aside, I would be more comfortable using the X3700H as preamp/processor than the RZ50, but that only applies the X3700H before the DAC chip switch.

For those who feels Dirac, even if the RZ50 cannot aligned two subs is the most important consideration may obviously go with the Onkyo. To me, for someone willing to spend a little more time to tweak with the App, XT32/SubEQ HT is just as good if not better, that's based on my own experience, ymmv..

Someone need to send a Denon to Amir so we can see the effects of the lower spec'ed PCM5102A for the sake of those keen on the preamp/dac SINAD.