Can Audio Perfection be attained?

[Deacon Blues]

OK - before anyone jumps down my throat.

Please keep in mind - I'm only about 5 years into my Audio gear accumulation and know-how. A lot of the knowledge, and lack thereof, I had brought with me being a musician for 20+ years (I'm 34).

My question isn't if noise is audible. I am curious if its even possible to attain a noise free, perfect signal. What would be require, say, on a shoestring budget? Is something like a power conditioner needed (in this hypothetical situation)?

If so, which type will actually work?

Are Belden cables adequate for interconnects?

Should Wi-fi be avoided to combat interference?

Thank you. I anticipate your replies.

 

[sergeauckland]

It rather depends on what you means by a 'perfect' signal.

All audio signals consist of a voltage, which is made up of the desired signal plus an amount of noise and distortion. Consequently, it's not possible to have a 'perfect' signal, i.e. one completely identical to the original.

However, if by 'perfect' you mean audibly identical, then yes, because the added noise and distortion is generally so low as to be completely inaudible. In that respect, if you do a blind test, you (and I suggest statistically anybody else), will be unable to hear any difference.

The above applies to all analogue signals, being a voltage in a wire.

Digital is somewhat different, insofar as a digital stream is a load of numbers that represent the analogue signal once decoded. That digital stream can be copied, transmitted, stored and recovered identically, i.e. perfectly, so digital data, which is what it is, not 'music' or 'audio', usually is 'perfect'. It only becomes imperfect, but as mentioned above inaudibly so, when converted to analogue voltages.

S.

 

[Killingbeans]

I am curious if its even possible to attain a noise free, perfect signal.

It isn't.

Noise can only be minimized, but it can never be removed completely. Numerous laws of physics forbid it.

Keeping it below audibility is the only sensible concern.

 

[wiggum]

Are Belden cables adequate for interconnects?

Should Wi-fi be avoided to combat interference?

Thank you. I anticipate your replies.

That smells like audiophile BS even from a mile away.

Audio perfection was achieved a long time ago but the imperfect mind of audiophiles refuse to accept it.

 

[M00ndancer]

As an added answer to @sergeauckland and @Killingbeans

What would be require, say, on a shoestring budget? Is something like a power conditioner needed (in this hypothetical situation)?
The short an easy answer for headphone users: No, unless you have really bad power delivery in you flat/house

Are Belden cables adequate for interconnects?
If you like them use them, but any cable will work just fine.

Should Wi-fi be avoided to combat interference?
No.

 

[Deacon Blues]

That smells like audiophile BS even from a mile away.

Audio perfection was achieved a long time ago but the imperfect mind of audiophiles refuse to accept it.

I think your answer is rather dismissive and rude. Why? Can't I ask the question? Isn't that what Amir measures for? Thanks.

 

[Deacon Blues]

It isn't.

Noise can only be minimized, but it can never be removed completely. Numerous laws of physics forbid it.

Keeping it below audibility is the only sensible concern.

Right - ok. How do you minimize it? I'm seeking an answer of what does it take for a signal to go in and come out the exact same in modern day gear.
Also, if its even possible to do so with a wifi signal, or is there degradation or loss.

 

[SIY]

I think your answer is rather dismissive and rude. Why? Can't I ask the question? Isn't that what Amir measures for? Thanks.

Of course you can ask. And that's an accurate answer. I think he's being helpful, not rude. Dismissive, yes, because incorrect ideas should be dismissed.

Regarding noise minimization, that's circuit-level stuff, so if you're buying black boxes, look for ones where noise measurements (not specs, measurements) show minimal noise.

 

[Deacon Blues]

Of course you can ask. And that's an accurate answer. I think he's being helpful, not rude. Dismissive, yes, because incorrect ideas should be dismissed.

Regarding noise minimization, that's circuit-level stuff, so if you're buying black boxes, look for ones where noise measurements (not specs, measurements) show minimal noise.

How is this an incorrect idea? Can you elaborate?

 

[SIY]

Right - ok. How do you minimize it? I'm seeking an answer of what does it take for a signal to go in and come out the exact same in modern day gear.

How adept are you at electronics and math? Serious question, because the answer to this fills multiple texts and four years of EE courses.

If I assume some basic calculus and circuit theory isn't off-putting, I would strongly suggest you get a copy of Horowitz and Hill's "Art of Electronics" as a good introduction.

 

[SIY]

How is this an incorrect idea? Can you elaborate?

Sure. Engineered electronics don't have issues with low level high frequency RF like wifi. Shielding is pretty straightforward, especially at these levels. That doesn't stop people who peddle useless fixes for non-problems trying to sell you stuff on the basis of FUD.

edit: One more thing in response to an earlier question about perfection. Not sure what your instrument is, but besides my principle instrument (flute), I hack away at guitar and bass. Now, can you have two strings perfectly in tune? Nope. It would literally take forever to accomplish that- for example, if you're listening for beats, you know the slower the beats, the closer two strings are in tune. But the beat would have to be infinitely long for the frequency difference to be zero. Now the next question is, can you tune two strings close enough that humans can't distinguish their pitch. You sure can. It's not perfection, but it's audibly perfect.

 

[M00ndancer]

Right - ok. How do you minimize it? I'm seeking an answer of what does it take for a signal to go in and come out the exact same in modern day gear.
Also, if its even possible to do so with a wifi signal, or is there degradation or loss.

Why don't you start by telling you what gear you have? That will help a lot when giving advice. But be prepared to get the answer you need and not the one you think you want. Many of us here are a crass bunch of objectivitists, trying to weed thru all the audiofool stuff that's floating around music reproduction. For the technical explanations I gladly pass that ball to users like @SIY

 

[Deacon Blues]

Sure. Engineered electronics don't have issues with low level high frequency RF like wifi. Shielding is pretty straightforward, especially at these levels. That doesn't stop people who peddle useless fixes for non-problems trying to sell you stuff on the basis of FUD.

Fair enough. I appreciate the info. I had noticed that I had a light plugged into the same APC surge protector as some of my audio gear. It flickers sometimes, I thought it was a bulb issue, but I thought maybe it is the power. If that were true, would it be an issue. Apparently the surges, are a non-issue.

Edit: Digital = Gigabit Brix i3 w/ 4TB HDD-> (wifi) Chromecast Audio (optical) into the NAD MDC DAC. (Cirrus Logic 4390 DAC. )

I also have the PC connected via Ethernet in regards to my 5.1 system. (not worried about that so much) To play BDMV's and SACD ISO's. via JRiver and Roon.

Analog is Orbit Custom turntable (uses wall wart, not a fan) into a Pluto phono (also wall wart)-> NAD356BEE -> Elac B6.2's all using Belden interconnects and Canare 4S11 speaker cables.

The stereo system is all connected to an APC Surge protector (Surgearrest, 1600 Jules I believe.) Using stock power cables.

 

[SIY]

Fair enough. I appreciate the info. I had noticed that I had a light plugged into the same APC surge protector as some of my audio gear. It flickers sometimes, I thought it was a bulb issue, but I thought maybe it is the power. If that were true, would it be an issue. Apparently the surges, are a non-issue.

More likely, a connection issue at the bulb and socket. If you have weedy house wiring, sudden surges in demand elsewhere (e.g., a refrigerator compressor cycling on) can cause the line voltage to have a brief sag.

 

[Deacon Blues]

More likely, a connection issue at the bulb and socket. If you have weedy house wiring, sudden surges in demand elsewhere (e.g., a refrigerator compressor cycling on) can cause the line voltage to have a brief sag.

It's a condo built in the 70's I believe. It had a facelift, but I'm sure it was purely aesthetic.

 

[M00ndancer]

Digital = Gigabit Brix i3 w/ 4TB HDD-> (wifi) Chromecast Audio (optical) into the NAD MDC DAC. (Cirrus Logic 4390 DAC. )
I also have the PC connected via Ethernet in regards to my 5.1 system. (not worried about that so much) To play BDMV's and SACD ISO's. via JRiver and Roon.
Analog is Orbit Custom turntable (uses wall wart, not a fan) into a Pluto phono (also wall wart)-> NAD356BEE -> Elac B6.2's all using Belden interconnects and Canare 4S11 speaker cables.
The stereo system is all connected to an APC Surge protector (Surgearrest, 1600 Jules I believe.) Using stock power cables.

Can't see anything wrong with your system. You might want to upgrade the DAC to a DAC that measures better, but I don't think you can hear the difference anyway. Change the cartridge for a better one if that's possible.
What you can do to improve the sound a lot is to do some room correction and improving the acoustics with room treatment.

 

[wiggum]

I think your answer is rather dismissive and rude. Why? Can't I ask the question? Isn't that what Amir measures for? Thanks.

Because those questions are asked by audiophiles not normal people.

Are Belden cables adequate for interconnects?

A Google search would have shown you that cables don't make any audible impact.

Should Wi-fi be avoided to combat interference?

Why stop with Wi-Fi? Why didn't you ask about interference from power lines and AM broadcast? Both of which are more likely to interfere with electronic circuits than Wi-Fi. The circuit designers do their best to minimize such interference. What if you live near a broadcast station? Would you move? In fact, anywhere near civilization is inundated with man-made electromagnetic waves that there is no place to escape them.

My advice is that you enjoy the music rather than worry about these things.

 

[Deacon Blues]

Can't see anything wrong with your system. You might want to upgrade the DAC to a DAC that measures better, but I don't think you can hear the difference anyway. Change the cartridge for a better one if that's possible.
What you can do to improve the sound a lot is to do some room correction and improving the acoustics with room treatment.

Hey thank you for the constructive advice, I appreciate it.

I installed a foam backed canvas painting at the first reflection point on the left side of my speakers, I will be doing so on the right side as well, but my listening space is nearfield at the moment but, it's the best I can do at this point.

Both of those things are on the docket. Cart and DAC upgrades.

 

[Deacon Blues]

Because those questions are asked by audiophiles not normal people.



A Google search would have shown you that cables don't make any audible impact.



Why stop with Wi-Fi? Why didn't you ask about interference from power lines and AM broadcast? Both of which are more likely to interfere with electronic circuits than Wi-Fi. The circuit designers do their best to minimize such interference. What if you live near a broadcast station? Would you move? In fact, anywhere near civilization is inundated with man-made electromagnetic waves that there is no place to escape them.

My advice is that you enjoy the music rather than worry about these things.

Thanks for your advice. Life changing.

 

[solderdude]

I am curious if its even possible to attain a noise free, perfect signal.

Not noise free (as explained before not possible) but audible noise free is easily obtained.
One should realise that most audible noise comes from recordings and not from gear unless you have really sensitive speakers/headphones or crappy equipment.

What would be required, say, on a shoestring budget?

A DAC of your choice with a SINAD > 95 (See DAC chart) which can handle all file formats you have.
For the amp: pick one within your budget you like and has low enough noise figures.

Is something like a power conditioner needed (in this hypothetical situation)?

Nope.

Are Belden cables adequate for interconnects?

yes, so are many other brands.

Should Wi-fi be avoided to combat interference?

generally no, but when the transmitter is really close to the wiring or you are using open frame or plastic enclosure equipment or tubes sticking out that are very, very close to wifi transceivers you may have some weird sounds/noises coming through.