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Can anyone help with Alignment?

Apologies if I’m misunderstanding the whole directivity issue but what (in layman's terms) is the purpose of such testing?

Given that there is published data on all the drivers and the fact that the Midrange compression driver / horn and the Tweeter are both either freestanding and/or fully adjustable, does that not negate the need to measure at all the different degrees i.e. these drivers can essentially be positioned in a “sweet spot” for my listening position?

Or is this something that is inherent to the driver and cannot be physically corrected?

I found these online:

Fane 12-250TC - On-axis & 45° Off-axis


IMG_0407.jpeg


Visaton TL16H - On-axis, 30° & 60° Off-axis

IMG_0406.jpeg


The 18 Sound XT1464 states constant directivity from 1,500hz.
 
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My interpretation of these seems to suggest that crossovers in the 1khz - 1.2khz and 3khz - 4khz range may work well??
 
Understood.

Forgive my ignorance, my assumption was that FR / crossover settings didn’t matter.

So should the time alignment be done first, before any crossover settings are applied?

Should I take a full range sweep of each driver (within its published range) and time align the native responses then re-measure and move on to gain and crossover settings?

Ooooh, that's a very bad and incorrect assumption! All non-linear-phase (e.g. FIR) filters have a frequency dependent DELAY. So, no, you must go back and re-measure the speaker with the drivers mounted in the enclosure but without any filters. Then you use THAT data to design the crossover filters by modeling the response of the drivers+filters to see how they sum.
 
There isn't really much data on the Fane. Only two angles aren't much to go on. What is there, points towards lowering the crossover towards 1 kHz. But maybe 1.2 kHz is still okay, but from 1 kHz on, the woofer starts beaming a lot.

The tweeter specs show an fs of 6 kHz. Generally, you don't want to drive the thing much lower than that, but the Italian test that I linked earlier shows little issue with a lower crossover point:
1759481090058.png


For sure, from 5 kHz on, it's most linear. Also, the lower you go, the more noticeable will be possible lobing effects. You'll have to experiment with that. It should be especially noticeable if you move around in the room.
 
So I'm centring in on crossovers at 1 kHz and 6 kHz.

@Robbie010 , do you have crossover\processor? If yes - what?

Yes, I am using a dB-Mark XCA 48+ for Crossover and DSP.

So what's next?

Do I set the crossovers and then try to flatten the responses?
 
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Do I set the crossovers and then try to flatten the responses?
The other way around. First, flatten the responses, then set the crossovers and timings. For the woofer, flatten to one or 2 octaves above the crossover point.
 
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Sorry to be out of the scope of OP @Robbie010, but...

Generally speaking, XO around 1 kHz would not be a good idea in any audio setup since our ears and brain are really sensitive on not only SPL but also phase-rotation and/or directivity in Fq zone of ca. 500 Hz - 6 kHz, and especially so around 1 kHz.

Consequently, if possible, 500 Hz - 6 kHz zone should be covered by one "excellent" low-distortion midrange driver of wide and smooth directivity with no XO nor EQ in digital domain and analog domain in the Fq zone.

This is one of the several reasons for my sticking to the "world-heritage" still amazing, extremely low distortion, 8.8 cm YAMAHA vapor-deposited Beryllium midrange dome driver JA-0801; in my system, it excellently covers ca. 420 Hz - 7 kHz with DSP band-pass filters, i.e. HP filter (Linkwitz-Riley, -12 dB/Oct at 500 Hz) and LP filter (Linkwitz-Riley, -12 dB/Oct at 6 kHz) (ref. #931 and #1,009 on my project thread).
 
Apologies if I’m misunderstanding the whole directivity issue but what (in layman's terms) is the purpose of such testing?

In simple terms, think of directivity like this. Measure the speaker on-axis, and you get one amplitude response. Measure 15deg, 30deg (etc) off-axis, and you get a different amplitude response. What this means is that if you have them toed in so they fire at you on-axis, you hear the on-axis response. But if they are firing straight ahead and the angle between you and the loudspeaker is 15deg, you will hear the 15deg response. "Higher directivity" means that a speaker shoots out a narrow beam of sound, so if you measure off-axis you get a dramatically different amplitude response.

What this also means is that sound that emanates off-axis will reflect off the walls/floor/ceiling and arrive at the listening position with a slight delay. You want this reflected sound to be as similar as possible to the direct sound, otherwise it can throw off the tonality if it arrives early enough. We know from psychoacoustic studies that reflections that arrive <20ms to the direct sound are integrated by our ears so that it's the same sound.

You will find that loudspeakers with smooth directivity are prized on ASR, and earn top marks from Amir. I personally don't think that directivity has to be perfect, it just has to be "good enough". IMO all those guys who complain at small jiggles are the audio equivalent of navel gazing. The room itself will spectrally distort the sound. Having said that, from a speaker design perspective, you DO want to get your directivity as perfect as possible because it is worth striving for. But I think a more balanced position is to be a bit more forgiving of small directivity errors. What is the most important is to get the on-axis sound spectrally correct, and fortunately this is something that DSP can offer you.

Nobody knows what ideal directivity is, but most people accept that somewhere between a -6dB point at 30-45 deg is best. You will find some people on ASR believing that narrower directivity is better (fewer reflections at the expense of a smaller sweet spot), and some others thinking that wider directivity is better because reflections are beneficial. You don't want to open that can of worms here, do what is best for you, and your own personal audio philosophy.

Or is this something that is inherent to the driver and cannot be physically corrected?

It is inherent in the total physical design of the loudspeaker. The driver will have a certain directivity, but it will be influenced by the baffle (x, y location and width), shape of the baffle, presence of waveguides, whether the corners of the baffle are radiused, and even whether the driver is flush mounted or not.

When you take your measurements, you will find that what you get won't match what the manufacturer published. This is because manufacturers measure their drivers on a test baffle which likely won't be the same as yours.

I gave you a link to Vance Dickason's book earlier. Please buy it and read it. I can not recommend it strongly enough, I think it is mandatory reading for anybody who is interested in speakers, ESPECIALLY people who DIY speakers.
 
Generally speaking, XO around 1 kHz would not be a good idea in any audio setup since our ears and brain are really sensitive on not only SPL but also phase-rotation and/or directivity in Fq zone of ca. 500 Hz - 6 kHz, and especially so around 1 kHz.
Realistically, the lowest X-over frequency for the horn is about 800Hz.
 
Realistically, the lowest X-over frequency for the horn is about 800Hz.
Understood, but the distortion level of the horn around 800 Hz would be some issue, I guess.

Furthermore, XO between woofer and such horn would be next problem/issue even if OP would set XO at 800 Hz (may be somewhat dangerous?).
 
Understood, but the distortion level of the horn around 800 Hz would be some issue, I guess.
I think for hifi it's still fine. It's a fairly large 1.4" driver. It can take quite a beating. The waterfall in the Italian test does show some energy buildup below 1 kHz, though. But possibly the woofer is worse.
Furthermore, XO between woofer and such horn would be next problem/issue even if OP would set XO at 800 Hz (may be somewhat dangerous?).
Why dangerous? Directivity-wise wise it might be fine, since the woofer starts beaming at around 800 Hz as well. So, directivity will be mostly dominated by the horn.
 
Ok, gents (and ladies, maybe?), I went down the rabbit hole again today..... its difficult to stop measuring and tweaking and measuring and tweaking, once you start.....

Following everyone's advice, I first EQ'd the native sweeps to try and flatten them. I then applied and measured various crossover filters and finally settled on:

Woofer LPF - 794hz 48db Linkwitz-Riley
Midrange HPF - 1,090hz 48db Linkwitz-Riley & LPF - 5,993hz 12db Linkwitz-Riley
Tweeter HPF - 5,993hz 12db Linwitz-Riley

I had to play around quite a bit with the gain settings.

Finally used the Impulse response to eyeball a delay on the Tweeter of 0.708ms and that went from this:

Impulse Pre.jpg


To this:

Impulse.jpg


Anyhow, here is where I ended up, this is both speakers driven measured at the seating position, roughly 3.8m away:

Both Driven @ Seating Position.jpg


MDAT attached if anything can provide any further insight.
 

Attachments

Woofer LPF - 794hz 48db Linkwitz-Riley
Midrange HPF - 1,090hz 48db Linkwitz-Riley
Most likely, that is not optimal. It's best to have both slopes acoustically the same. Given that the woofer basically goes flat, it should probably be more like a 3rd order on the tweeter to roughly match them.
 
Most likely, that is not optimal. It's best to have both slopes acoustically the same. Given that the woofer basically goes flat, it should probably be more like a 3rd order on the tweeter to roughly match them.

When the slopes were matching there was a large +6db hump at the crossover!?
 
Why dangerous?
Since I am a little bit concerned about 400 Hz - 800 Hz sound would still go into the horn, whatever steep HP filter would be set at 800 Hz for the horn...

Generally, those horn drivers are highly efficient and hence there could be possibilities of receiving too much gain 400 Hz- 800Hz sound which would damage the horn, for example very much high gain full orchestra transient fff (forte fortissimo) symphony finale sound.

For safety purpose, it would be appropriate having a serial "suitable" HiFi-grade protection capacitor for the treasure horn.

Even for my treasure YAMAHA 8.8 cm vapor-deposited Beryllium dome midrange driver JA-0801, I have been using serial 68 microF protection capacitor. Of course, I carefully measured/checked Fq-SPL before and after the protection capacitor for confirmation/validation of essential transparency in the working 500 Hz - 6 kHz zone (ref. here and here).
 
Since I am a little bit concerned about 400 Hz - 800 Hz sound would still go into the horn, whatever steep HP filter would be set at 800 Hz for the horn...

Generally, those horn drivers are highly efficient and hence there could be possibilities of receiving too much gain 400 Hz- 800Hz sound which would damage the horn, for example very much high gain full orchestra transient fff (forte fortissimo) symphony finale sound.

For safety purpose, it would be appropriate having a serial "suitable" HiFi-grade protection capacitor for the treasure horn.

Even for my treasure YAMAHA 8.8 cm vapor-deposited Beryllium dome midrange driver JA-0801, I have been using serial 68 microF protection capacitor. Of course, I carefully measured/checked Fq-SPL before and after the protection capacitor for confirmation/validation of essential transparency in the working 500 Hz - 6 kHz zone (ref. here and here).

I have already taken heed of your advice and ordered good audio quality capacitors for the midrange and tweeter protection.
 
I have already taken heed of your advice and ordered good audio quality capacitors for the midrange and tweeter protection.
Nice to hear so.
Please select proper capacitance value for your specific treasure midrange and tweeter!
 
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