Can anyone explain the vinyl renaissance?

[rocksteady]

Some guy snarked about rot developing in 'several' CDs.

I replied (emphasis added now):
"I've heard that several LPs were actually warped already at point of sale*. But don't quote me!"

So, godspeed you on your method. Time to get out the ironing board?

(Are my quips getting harder to understand?)

Some guy snarked? Would that be I or the other poster? Your statement about Warped LPs at the point of sale adds nothing to the discussion. My point was simply that CDs are neither indestructible nor incorruptible. The manufacturing consistency is certainly Higher overall, but they won’t last Forever, as some naively seem to believe…
On the other hand, most of my earliest LP purchases, from around 1980, some of which were on heavy rotation for a number of years, are still in pretty good overall condition and play really well on the whole…

 

[Cote Dazur]

What Linn turntable do you have in your system? (Just assuming Linn based on your picture)

It does not matter, any decent TT will do the trick.
But, yes, one of my system, the main one in my biggest music room is a complete Linn system. It is a relic from a time when I had different beliefs. Before ASR.
That said my subjective impression is that it plays me beautiful and captivating music.
More important, the last few weeks, I have been listening to, rediscovering, John McLaughlin. Beautiful and inspiring music.

 

[Robin L]

Some guy snarked? Would that be I or the other poster? Your statement about Warped LPs at the point of sale adds nothing to the discussion. My point was simply that CDs are neither indestructible nor incorruptible. The manufacturing consistency is certainly Higher overall, but they won’t last Forever, as some naively seem to believe…
On the other hand, most of my earliest LP purchases, from around 1980, some of which were on heavy rotation for a number of years, are still in pretty good overall condition and play really well on the whole…

In my experience, the two don't even begin to compare. Yes, there were a few examples of CD rot early on, but that hasn't continued while off-center and warped LPs continue to be manufactured. All the CDs I've bought continue to work as well as when I first got them, the same could not be said of the LPs I've owned. "Most" and "pretty good overall" is not the same as "all".

FYI I started collecting LPs in 1968, ceased in 2018. Also, worked in a number of retail establishments that sold LPs, worked at Tower Berkeley as CDs first arrived on the shelves.

 

[krabapple]

Some guy snarked? Would that be I or the other poster? Your statement about Warped LPs at the point of sale adds nothing to the discussion.

Sure it does, if your big black mark against CDs is ...a long-since explained physical issue that certain CDS developed because they were poorly manufactured.

Are you grasping the analogy?

My point was simply that CDs are neither indestructible nor incorruptible.

Audio advertising copy was not *literally true*? Hand me the smelling salts, I feel faint.

I'm sure glad no extravagant marketing claims have ever been made for vinyl!

The manufacturing consistency is certainly Higher overall, but they won’t last Forever, as some naively seem to believe…

If 'forever' means, a human lifespan, overall, yeah, it seems like they *will* last that long. With zero degradation of sound.

If there are people who think anything, much less sometjing human-made , lasts literally *forever*, well , they're idiots, no? They'll probably believe all sorts of tosh ...like, LPs sounding more 'real' because they are analog.

On the other hand, most of my earliest LP purchases, from around 1980, some of which were on heavy rotation for a number of years, are still in pretty good overall condition and play really well on the whole…

Great! But unless you never play them, 'pretty good' is the best you can do.

A CD can do better. Easily.

Play an LP 100 times.
Play a CD 100 times.

Which one will more likely sound -- and measure -- on the last play exactly like it did on the first?

 

[krabapple]

Tower Records Berkeley California (worked there 1984-1987 or so) had a shrink wrap machine in the back room. Defective records were re-sealed and sent back to the floor. Most of the issues were with warps, as I recall.

Capitalism at its finest! Caveat emptor!

I indeed missed your point upon first read. But still, it depends on the severity of the warping and the overall tracking ability of your Cartridge and Arm combination…

But, my joke has nothing to do with the severity... ahh, the heck with it.

 

[Robin L]

Capitalism at its finest! Caveat emptor!

The mid-eighties, as I recall, were the absolute nadir of vinyl's downward spiral. As "perfect" CDs started rolling in, the number of cut-outs went sky high. And there were a lot of reissues of LPs with obvious changes in sound from the originals, usually not for the better. If you look at the sales charts, 1984 through 1987 has the steepest decline of sales. Current sales of LPs are still far underwater compared to 1980/1988.

 

[EJ3]

Yes, I have. It's almost as good as a properly sorted digital playback system and a hell of a lot more expensive.

But if you have one that evolved from the 1975 to 1988 and was always in the Top 10% Quality, well cared for LP reproduction systems, the expense has already been amortized.
Then it is not particularly expensive.
And therefore one can concentrate on getting the LP's (and/or) other analog that one wants.
Even, perhaps, converting them to local digital files (particularly for the many songs/LP's that are not, nor ever likely to be on digital streaming services).
The previous sentence is what I plan on doing.

 

[JRowland]

First CD, 1988 IIRC but may have been Christmas of ‘87 technically

My dad’s player from the era, both still sound fabulous.

Made me check, first album 1980

Still sounds great

I didn’t have the same love for cassette, I liked them but the hiss. Anyway I think this was close to first.

Still sounds as good as it can, as fun as any of the other formats in its own way.

I worry about losing digital but I keep on piling it on so I don’t worry that much. Luckily every format I’ve played with since childhood still work and the memories when using them are priceless.

 

[EJ3]

Luckily every format I’ve played with since childhood still work and the memories when using them are priceless.

Still using a pair of these (output of one runs into the input of the other [works great for everything from Reel to Reel, cassette decks, (CD's, DVD's Blu Ray, 4k audio) & of course, turntables.

 

[MatrixS2000]

Some guy snarked about rot developing in 'several' CDs.

I replied (emphasis added now):
"I've heard that several LPs were actually warped already at point of sale*. But don't quote me!"

So, godspeed you on your method. Time to get out the ironing board?

(Are my quips getting harder to understand?)

It’s still a damaged record that should have been returned for replacement.

 

[MatrixS2000]

Not to mention how easily one can hear pitch deviation. Sorry, but warped and off-center records render them useless unless one is tone-deaf.

We can also hear when transients are clipped off in digital releases. We already went through that example in this thread with a Rush song - it was obvious the transients were missing in the digital release.

 

[EJ3]

It’s still a damaged record that should have been returned for replacement.

Just stick the record between 2 pieces of glass, place in the sun for a bit, flip it & place into the sun for a bit, bring it inside & allow to cool until the glass is room temperature.
This 'MAY' fix the warp.
Sadly, it will not fix an off center spindle hole, which you won't discover until you have played the record AFTER you have fixed the warp.

 

[Leporello]

We can also hear when transients are clipped off in digital releases. We already went through that example in this thread with a Rush song - it was obvious the transients were missing in the digital release.

Yes. What do you think is the point of this? Clipped transients are not inherent in digital.

 

[Robin L]

Yes. What do you think is the point of this? Clipped transients are not inherent in digital.

When I see these posts pointing to mastering and/or production decisions as some kind of a proof that there is something inherently wrong with "digital" I feel the need to point out that the same sort of mastering/production decisions also apply to LPs. Maybe the LP will have better dynamics, maybe it won't. I don't worry about it because nearly all of the music I listen to is comparatively uncompressed. (That means that there will be plenty of very quiet parts, the sort that expose surface noise and other imperfections in LP playback). And, honestly, one should only expect 'real' dynamics from pure acoustic music. Pop/Rock/Rap/Country etc. will be compressed, no matter what.

 

[MatrixS2000]

Yes. What do you think is the point of this?

Arguing about which format is superior is a waste of time since everyone acknowledges that digital is the superior format. I have stated this repeatedly in this thread. But we don’t listen to formats, we listen to the content within the format. The format is merely a container. The content within the digital format is not always better than the content within the vinyl format. Mastering>>>>Format.

 

[OldHvyMec]

Current sales of LPs are still far underwater compared to 1980/1988.

Thats NEW sales not overall sales. I'll bet over 50% of current record sales, along with CDs and some cassettes, aren't recorded transactions. A buddy just bought a collection of 350+ records for 300 dollars at a yard sale. At least 45-50 had never been removed from the original wrapper. LOTS of Tower Records store stickers too.

Streaming numbers are pretty easy or at least more accurate to track. Yes?

 

[Leporello]

The content within the digital format is not always better than the content within the vinyl format. Mastering>>>>Format.

Oh yes it is, absolutely and every single time. What you find personally pleasing is another matter.

 

[krabapple]

The mid-eighties, as I recall, were the absolute nadir of vinyl's downward spiral. As "perfect" CDs started rolling in, the number of cut-outs went sky high. And there were a lot of reissues of LPs with obvious changes in sound from the originals, usually not for the better. If you look at the sales charts, 1984 through 1987 has the steepest decline of sales. Current sales of LPs are still far underwater compared to 1980/1988.

I remember vinyl quality going southward in second half of the 1970s -- the oil crisis played a role as the cost of petroleum-based ingredients went up. Records were too often flimsier, noisier, warped or off-center than they had been previously. (The music got shittier too ;>)

 

[DSJR]

There were some stunning 12" singles in the early 80s, the limiters apparently turned off or minimised for the cuts. Sadly also, the 12" mixes were often more dynamic in-the-mix than the safer album versions (as played on the vinyl and/or CD releases of same)

 

[levimax]

Oh yes it is, absolutely and every single time. What you find personally pleasing is another matter

There are plenty of examples where the "content" on the LP is better than later digital versions due usually to the master tapes being damaged during the time between the original LP and the later digital version. Another example is that there are thousands of historical recordings where the digital version used "records" (78's or LP's) as their source. While the digital versions are most likely indistinguishable from their "record" sources it is certain that the digital versions are not "better".