Can anyone explain the vinyl renaissance?

[egellings]

Out of curiosity, am I the only one here who actually likes the sound of vinyl?

I’m not talking about, of course, vinyl being superior. Nor asking if anyone even likes vinyl better than digital.

But when it comes up, I mostly see people here sort of making excuses for playing vinyl. It can’t really sound good so we have to talk about all the other non-sonic qualities to justify our choice of still playing records.

So that’s why I’m wondering if anybody else here, like me, doesn’t feel like they have to just “ put up with the sound” when playing a record, but can actually enjoy the sound of vinyl as a departure from their digital source?

I thoroughly enjoy playing vinyl on my home-brewed setup. It's got no right to sound as good as it does. I take care of my vinyl records, and don't have any problems with ticks, pops skips or other issues. Of course, if I buy used records, then I may have to deal with those issues.

 

[Deleted member 20765]

Out of curiosity, am I the only one here who actually likes the sound of vinyl?

I’m not talking about, of course, vinyl being superior. Nor asking if anyone even likes vinyl better than digital.

But when it comes up, I mostly see people here sort of making excuses for playing vinyl. It can’t really sound good so we have to talk about all the other non-sonic qualities to justify our choice of still playing records.

So that’s why I’m wondering if anybody else here, like me, doesn’t feel like they have to just “ put up with the sound” when playing a record, but can actually enjoy the sound of vinyl as a departure from their digital source?

I've been (silently) with you all the way. I was slammed so hard after I made a post here on this subject that I left ASR forever, never to be bullied again.
Not feeling sorry for myself but proud of how I've been able to get such very good sounds from my LPs.

Yet, it is a noisier than digital. However, from my listening position, I don't notice any hiss, pop, crackle, etc. Good cleaning practice makes a huge difference.

I don't have to worry about compression.

Most of us can't localize sources less than about 100Hz, so the blending to mono below that frequency is moot.

Maybe there's some IGD, but on well made LPs it is inaudible (to me).

Certainly many LPs are mastered or pressed poorly with dodgy vinyl pucks. But we've all had CDs that sound wrong, screechy or thin or...
The best mastered and pressed LPs are beautiful to listen to as are the better mastered digital offerings.

Some wonderfullly made LPs from the late 50s through 1970 are beautiful to listen to. Some of these have never been available in digital. Others, such as the numerous digitized versions of Wagner's Ring (the Solti/Culshaw collaboration) have had a rocky past and still don't match the sound of the Decca/London LPs (IMO).

I also listen to digital, mostly if I don't have the LP or if I'm working and don't want to be disturbed.

I do not stream. I'll own my music thank you.

IMO.

 

[MattHooper]

* raises, beer mug, clinks glasses
cheers bros

I make no apologies whatsoever for enjoying the sound of vinyl on my system.

 

[Snoopy]

I do not stream. I'll own my music thank you.

IMO.

I have somewhere between 700-800 offline albums on my roon server. Music that I own but I’m also „streaming“ the music.
All my digital media is hidden in boxes. I don’t even own a CD player and I never actually „played“ a CD in the last 15 years.
I just the disc and never touch the album again.

 

[paulg1]

MattHooper said "Out of curiosity, am I the only one here who actually likes the sound of vinyl?"

I think vinyl can sound really good. Most of problems that plague vinyl (IMO mechanical resonances) can be greatly reduced to the point of not being a substantial deterrent for enjoyment of music.

Surface noise is widely cited as the principal problem, but in reality this heavily influenced by the fundamental tonearm resonance. This resonance at first would not seem very important, as it is typically subsonic, until you consider what the resonance is: the arm is bending. That causes intermodulation distortion in the audible frequencies. It turns out that rumble, wow, and flutter are largely influenced as well. Even more important is that the record groove has a lot of subsonic "garbage" centered 3-4 Hz. If the arm resonance is near this, that will excite the arm resonance The intermodulation distortion is severe, which is a "snowplow" sound. The fundamental resonance is a function of the arm (moving) mass, the cartridge mass, the cartridge compliance, and the tracking force (which affects the compliance). This has been measured and documented since the late 70s The solution is to find arm/cartridge combinations raise this resonance as high as possible without becoming audible This gets rid of a lot of the problems with vinyl. See attachment.

 

[paulg1]

BTW, gorgeous turntable, Transrotor Fat Bob I think.

 

[egellings]

MattHooper said "Out of curiosity, am I the only one here who actually likes the sound of vinyl?"

I think vinyl can sound really good. Most of problems that plague vinyl (IMO mechanical resonances) can be greatly reduced to the point of not being a substantial deterrent for enjoyment of music.

Surface noise is widely cited as the principal problem, but in reality this heavily influenced by the fundamental tonearm resonance. This resonance at first would not seem very important, as it is typically subsonic, until you consider what the resonance is: the arm is bending. That causes intermodulation distortion in the audible frequencies. It turns out that rumble, wow, and flutter are largely influenced as well. Even more important is that the record groove has a lot of subsonic "garbage" centered 3-4 Hz. If the arm resonance is near this, that will excite the arm resonance The intermodulation distortion is severe, which is a "snowplow" sound. The fundamental resonance is a function of the arm (moving) mass, the cartridge mass, the cartridge compliance, and the tracking force (which affects the compliance). This has been measured and documented since the late 70s The solution is to find arm/cartridge combinations raise this resonance as high as possible without becoming audible This gets rid of a lot of the problems with vinyl. See attachment.

Another problem that can cause an increase in vinyl noise annoyance is a marginally stable preamp that 'stretches' the sound of ticks & pops. The sharp transients in the noise can excite the instability in the preamp, and the ringing and has a lengthening effect on transients.

 

[MattHooper]

BTW, gorgeous turntable, Transrotor Fat Bob I think.

Yup. (Fat Bob “S”).

I decided to leapfrog up to this turntable so I wouldn’t be bothered by upgrade itches

 

[Snoopy]

Yup. (Fat Bob “S”).

I decided to leapfrog up to this turntable so I wouldn’t be bothered by upgrade itches

Cool turntable
Certainly a nice part of this hobby is the engineering that goes into it. Right ?

 

[Holmz]

Cool turntable
Certainly a nice part of this hobby is the engineering that goes into it. Right ?

Some of the engineering helps with the sound though.
High mass platters are a brute force approach for speed stability, and various suspension schemes etc. are for minimising mechanical feedback.
But in the end they are done for improvements in sound.

 

[MattHooper]

Cool turntable
Certainly a nice part of this hobby is the engineering that goes into it. Right ?

Definitely.

There’s a very nice simple direct feeling of design to function in a good turntable that I simply don’t get from a black box like a DAC or a CD player.

I get a somewhat similar effect from my tube amplifiers, or I actually get to see the signal itself blowing and amplified within the tubes.

 

[DSJR]

I don't really like the sound of vinyl. When it was the only domestic source for high quality audio, I put up with it, but I could always tell (thanks to access to live bands in recording studios) that it's a sugar-coated version of the original master tape. In other words, although it sounds "nice" it also feels fake to me.

I know exactly where you are here BUT, vinyl doesn't have to be so 'sugar-coated' you know. Thing is, to do it really well, involves a lot of money in the hardware and a damned good cleaning machine No hands-on experience, but my view above may be tempered with some of the better cheaper players around these days, which may be very critical of siting for best bass performance (subjective and objective).

 

[deweydm]

Pretty low priority on the list of things to worry about, but I do have some morbid curiosity about what tariffs are gonna do to the cost, release cadence, and demand for new LPs in the US. Large percentage of newer records I’ve bought over the last decade or so have been pressed in Europe. And I’d guess most of the materials at domestic pressing plants are imported. PVC from China, etc..

Seems plausible that demand for new LPs could crater in the US if they stick with the tariffs. Even if domestic PVC manufacturers and US pressing plants expand, the inevitable price increases seem likely to clobber demand in the interim.

Volatility and anti-American resentment are already hurting the niche vinyl industry, but a little-known law could help it survive.

The part where imported LPs could be unaffected by tariffs while domestic production gets whacked is a twist.

 

[MaxwellsEq]

I know exactly where you are here BUT, vinyl doesn't have to be so 'sugar-coated' you know. Thing is, to do it really well, involves a lot of money in the hardware and a damned good cleaning machine No hands-on experience, but my view above may be tempered with some of the better cheaper players around these days, which may be very critical of siting for best bass performance (subjective and objective).

My turntable is a Townsend Rock with Rega RB300 and Van Den Hul tipped Decca Gold.

Because I worked with studios, master tape etc. I was aware that this setup sounded close to master tape characteristics. Compared to classic players such as a Linn Sondek + koetsu Rosewood, it has a very neutral, non-saccharine representation of LP playback with reasonable extension at either frequency extreme, low noise and a lack of artificial bass bloom. Despite this, it still mixes in noise and distortion which is what people like about the vinyl sound.

 

[DSJR]

I remember Max bringing one of his Rock decks (we sold them too, but this was a little different) with Excaliber arm and Dynavector 17D cartridge (Deccas were going through a horrible patch) along with a cheaper Philips CD player. The two 'sounds' were almost directly comparable and Max basically shrugged his shoulders declaring that this was indeed the future!

The best vinyl player I ever had at home was a Notts Analogue Mentor (now replaced with the Dias model) with matching unipivot arm and a Garrott Decca Gold - like yourself, the sound from this (graphite top platter with a story all its own) was the closest to my master tape copies (or CD) I'd ever heard at the time. The deck, tapes and the high speed IEC machine I played them on has long gone sadly, but the cartridge (low hours) is still here. Whether I'll ever again have a deck and arm worthy of it I don't know... I do have a brand new RB330 waiting for a suitable deck to be used with it.

 

[EJ3]

Not really worth the hassle; taking life in exchange for property << not the right kind of tit-for-tat!
But if you want to have some fun with some nutzo-bag, as @caught gesture's hypothetical case below:

A painful tongue-lashing may be much more effective and enjoyable than even calling the cops...

So, you think that if they catch you home of catch you witnessing them, that they will not OFF you?
When the possible repercussions are well known to the criminal, usually they just don't try to enter ones domicile.
But, I like to see them suffer while I wait on law enforcement to eventually arrive, hence I have places in my house that I can shoot them while they are still outside with this:

And again & again, as needed. I'll enjoy the 20-60 minutes that it takes law enforcement to arrive. Bad person gets punished more, the longer it takes.
Since they did not die, no repercussions
Thus: no harm, no foul.
But if they manage to get in, I have to presume that they are not there to help me or my family, all bets are off:

 

[Holmz]

So, you think that if they catch you home of catch you witnessing them, that they will not OFF you?
When the possible repercussions are well known to the criminal, usually they just don't try to enter ones domicile.
But, I like to see them suffer while I wait on law enforcement to eventually arrive, hence I have places in my house that I can shoot them while they are still outside with this:

And again & again, as needed. I'll enjoy the 20-60 minutes that it takes law enforcement to arrive. Bad person gets punished more, the longer it takes.
Since they did not die, no repercussions
Thus: no harm, no foul.
But if they manage to get in, I have to presume that they are not there to help me or my family, all bets are off:

Ok… good to know.

 

[J.M. Noble]

Out of curiosity, am I the only one here who actually likes the sound of vinyl?

I do too.

Cassette also has its charms.

 

[MaxwellsEq]

I remember Max bringing one of his Rock decks (we sold them too, but this was a little different) with Excaliber arm and Dynavector 17D cartridge (Deccas were going through a horrible patch) along with a cheaper Philips CD player. The two 'sounds' were almost directly comparable and Max basically shrugged his shoulders declaring that this was indeed the future!

The best vinyl player I ever had at home was a Notts Analogue Mentor (now replaced with the Dias model) with matching unipivot arm and a Garrott Decca Gold - like yourself, the sound from this (graphite top platter with a story all its own) was the closest to my master tape copies (or CD) I'd ever heard at the time. The deck, tapes and the high speed IEC machine I played them on has long gone sadly, but the cartridge (low hours) is still here. Whether I'll ever again have a deck and arm worthy of it I don't know... I do have a brand new RB330 waiting for a suitable deck to be used with it.

The Decca cartridges are... well... a bit tricky. Completely different horizontal and vertical compliance makes arm-matching a mystery. I found the RB300 worked OK.

I can remember the Rock turntables dividing opinion amongst subjectivist reviewers. As an engineer I found the original academic research at Cranfield compelling. Subjectivist reviews did identify reduced noise (probably due to reduced resonance), but many didn't like the dry, "deadness" of the presentation and often commented on a lack of bass. The presentation suited me because I knew what a band in a studio sounded like and a Koetsu on a Linn was fun, but inaccurate.

I can't "un-hear" vinyl replay flaws: the inaccuracy below 150Hz and the noisy distorted shambles above 5kHz. They are too obvious to me. I still listen to the hundreds of LPs I've not discarded, however...

 

[Juhazi]

The Wizard of Vinyl Is in Kansas

Chad Kassem is on a mission — saving listeners “from bad sound” — at the rural factory where he pores over LPs from some of music’s most important artists.

www.nytimes.com