Can anyone explain the vinyl renaissance?

[mhardy6647]

(seen @ hifihaven.org)

follow me for more audiophile vinyl tips!

 

[mhardy6647]

apropos of… I dunno….vinyl….

I was trying out an image maker being used by other vinyl enthusiast to show their record collections. It goes through your collection and collects all the cover images and put it all into one zoomable image.

DisCovers

Visualising your Discogs.com collection.

discovers.antisound.net

For some reason, I wasn’t able to get it to make a single image of my whole collection. I just had to make a few images via selecting “ genre.” I’d say the “ genre” orientation seems a bit haphazard.

Still, it’s kind of neat. Especially since you can zoom in towards the covers and while not perfectly clear you can at least get a better look at the covers.

I’ve always felt that if I really hated somebody, I would give them my vinyl collection. It’s where my music devouring is at its most idiosyncratic. I think there’s little in there that many people would like or want or even recognize.

Here’s an image of the covers that the program found under the genre “ stage and screen.”
It seemed to collect many of my soundtrack vinyl, and it’s also completely infested with my Library music records, which makes sense because they were made for movies TV and commercials. The records were made as samples sent to editors to select premade, dramatic, music tracks, and had never been released to the public. Many of which are not found in digital releases.

View attachment 419812

These were the album covers collected under the genre “Electronic Music.” Again, seems a bit haphazard with quite a bit of guesswork:

View attachment 419813

(cigarette cards)

PS It's a great record, brilliant and ramshackle at the same time. Sounds very good, too.

 

[MatrixS2000]

The pictures I posted of the “My Silver Lining” song isn't from a “simulation”, it shows a real CD release vs a real vinyl rip so there isn't any HPF to turn off.

So measure it with a tool that uses PSR.

But as I said, it's the traces that shows that the same original master was used for both the releases that I see as the main interesting thing, and as most vinyl-specific mastering processes will contain the use of an HPF which will in most cases give that higher DR reading, there is not much point in finding one of the few vinyl releases where an HPF wasn't used as in the example with the song by the Foo Fighters when speaking in general terms. In general, most vinyl rips show a higher DR than their digital counterpart, and without further investigation it's impossible to know if they are truly more dynamic or not just based on that number, and that's what most people look at.

No, Ian clearly said that the process does not change the sound.

Here is the quote again.

You are mistaken about the cause of the DR increase for vinyl. The DR increase comes from the absence of a limiter in the vinyl master. We have ample proof of that now where mastering engineers clearly state that vinyl specific masters use little to no limiters.

Here is yet another proof point to the above:

The above from this mastering engineer’s website.



The Foo Fighters vinyl rip when passed through MasVis clearly shows a limiter was in play:



MasVis documentation also clearly calls this out. Regarding the Allpassed Crest Factor graph:

Regarding the Histogram graph:

All of this analysis clearly shows that the Foo Fighters vinyl master is the same as the CD. They also sound the same and measure the same because they are the same.

Whereas the Tool example when passed through MasVis shows the absence of a limiter.



PS. I am near Ottawa and still jealous, as it is freezing again today. Oh and Foo Fighters - I want the $31 I paid for the vinyl back!

 

[MatrixS2000]

Yep, as I mentioned above: the economics of loudness dictates smashed releases for digital formats.

Sad But True - Metallica

 

[MatrixS2000]

(seen @ hifihaven.org)
View attachment 419902

follow me for more audiophile vinyl tips!

The best record weight ever...

 

[mhardy6647]

The best record weight ever...

egg-zack-a-tackly!

 

[goat76]

So measure it with a tool that uses PSR.

I can't, I only had the measurements that were made by another guy on a Swedish audio forum called Faktiskt, a forum that is fact-based just like ASR (but been around for longer).

No, Ian clearly said that the process does not change the sound.

Here is the quote again.
View attachment 419892

No, he say that the processes causes virtually no audible change, but that doesn't m ean it doesn't change the sound at all. The processes can be audible and that depends on the program material, but it will likely not increase the perceived dynamics of the music.

You are mistaken about the cause of the DR increase for vinyl. The DR increase comes from the absence of a limiter in the vinyl master. We have ample proof of that now where mastering engineers clearly state that vinyl specific masters use little to no limiters.

I have never said that there are never any vinyl records made from masters with higher dynamics than the digital release. What I have said is that it can’t be determined if the vinyl was made from a none-limited master just by looking at the DR numbers on the DR Loudness-war website.

There ARE vinyl-specific masters without the use of any limiters at all. And there ARE also vinyls made from the same brick-wall limited master as the digital counterpart. The problem is to know if the higher DR reading for a vinyl is truly coming from a less dynamically limited master, without diving deeper into the measurements, or using other tools as you suggest.

But the thing is, people in general don't use other tools, they use the tools that give them the reading of DR5 for the CD release, and the reading of DR10 for the song “My Silver Lining”. That vinyl was made from a master that would land somewhere around DR5, as the same brick-wall limitation of the CD release is seen in the waveform of the vinyl release, but just tilted caused by phase shifts which will not add to the perceived dynamics of the music as that information was already lost in the brick-wall process.

Here is yet another proof point to the above:

View attachment 419894

The above from this mastering engineer’s website.

Yes, there are sometimes more dynamic masters used for the vinyl release, who has said they don't exist?

The Foo Fighters vinyl rip when passed through MasVis clearly shows a limiter was in play:

View attachment 419897

MasVis documentation also clearly calls this out. Regarding the Allpassed Crest Factor graph:

View attachment 419899

Regarding the Histogram graph:
View attachment 419900

All of this analysis clearly shows that the Foo Fighters vinyl master is the same as the CD. They also sound the same and measure the same because they are the same.

There are many things that indicate that the Foo Fighters song is limited.

1. The crest factor is low and the type of music they play would normally have a crest factor of something like 17-21 dB if it was ”full range”.

2. And by looking at the ”Histogram” graph in MasVis, it looks like ”long tent-pins are holding the tent above the ground”. If a song doesn’t have a limiter, you wouldn’t see any ”tent-pins and the walls of the tent would reach all the way to the ground”. If that explanation make sense.
But if the original master was limited already before the typical vinyl processes like HPF is used in the preparation of the vinyl, the ”walls of the tent-looking graph would reach the ground anyways, but the walls would look bent where it meets the ground”. Yes I know, strange way of trying to explain it.

But the people behind the MasVis program are somewhat wrong about the ”Allpassed crest factor” graph. It can sometimes show that something was done in mastering like if a limiter were used or if EQ were used to change the overall sound. But I have also seen fairly large deviations in that graph for tracks that I fully well know no such changes has been done to the file, and I know this because they were recorded, mixed, and mastered by myself.

Whereas the Tool example when passed through MasVis shows the absence of a limiter.

View attachment 419901

Yes, the track by Tool doesn’t have a limiter. The crest factor is high indicating that it’s pretty much full-range for that type of music, and the Foo Fighters track would have landed with a similar crest factor if it wasn’t dynamically limited in the mastering process.

PS. I am near Ottawa and still jealous, as it is freezing again today. Oh and Foo Fighters - I want the $31 I paid for the vinyl back!

I live in the northern part of Sweden in town called Luleå. It seems like the climate is very similar this time a year in Ottawa, right now it’s -13c degrees back home.

 

[MatrixS2000]

I can't, I only had the measurements that were made by another guy on a Swedish audio forum called Faktiskt, a forum that is fact-based just like ASR (but been around for longer).

Ok, is this the only song that you have that has these properties?

No, he say that the processes causes virtually no audible change, but that doesn't m ean it doesn't change the sound at all. The processes can be audible and that depends on the program material, but it will likely not increase the perceived dynamics of the music.

Touché and agreed - do we agree that a HPF cannot be used as a valid simulation for what happens during the vinyl manufacturing process?

I have never said that there are never any vinyl records made from masters with higher dynamics than the digital release. What I have said is that it can’t be determined if the vinyl was made from a none-limited master just by looking at the DR numbers on the DR Loudness-war website.

There ARE vinyl-specific masters without the use of any limiters at all. And there ARE also vinyls made from the same brick-wall limited master as the digital counterpart. The problem is to know if the higher DR reading for a vinyl is truly coming from a less dynamically limited master, without diving deeper into the measurements, or using other tools as you suggest.

I understand that you're not claiming there are no vinyl releases with higher DR; there's no need to keep reiterating that point. I got it long ago. I'm not interested in determining the accuracy of the loudness-wars website. There are too many variables beyond our control to make that effort worthwhile.

Let's establish a common understanding to avoid unnecessary repetition. Please let me know if I’ve overlooked anything or if you disagree with any of the points below:

1 - There are instances of vinyl records with higher DR, attributed to the absence of a limiter in the vinyl-specific digital master, such as Tool's "Fear Inoculum."
2 - There are examples of vinyl records mastered from digital sources that include a limiter, such as the self-titled album by Foo Fighters.
3 - There are instances of vinyl records that are mastered from digital sources without the inclusion of a limiter.
4 - Modern tools can reliably detect all of the above, as demonstrated by the examples mentioned, which I believe we both agree on.

The items we are trying to converge on:
1 - Are there examples of vinyl masters that utilize different techniques for creating a vinyl master such as applying a HPF? You have one but we can’t measure it.
2 - How commonly are those techniques used in the mastering profession?
3 - Can modern tools reliably measure DR in those?

But the thing is, people in general don't use other tools, they use the tools that give them the reading of DR5 for the CD release, and the reading of DR10 for the song “My Silver Lining”. That vinyl was made from a master that would land somewhere around DR5, as the same brick-wall limitation of the CD release is seen in the waveform of the vinyl release, but just tilted caused by phase shifts which will not add to the perceived dynamics of the music as that information was already lost in the brick-wall process.

I agree, but I’m not concerned with what the general population uses. I would estimate that 99.9% of people don’t even care and don’t use any tools. For me, this is about seeking understanding and uncovering the truth.

1. The crest factor is low and the type of music they play would normally have a crest factor of something like 17-21 dB if it was ”full range”.

2. And by looking at the ”Histogram” graph in MasVis, it looks like ”long tent-pins are holding the tent above the ground”. If a song doesn’t have a limiter, you wouldn’t see any ”tent-pins and the walls of the tent would reach all the way to the ground”. If that explanation make sense.

Your tent analogy works perfectly.

Clear tent-pins (posting these examples to illustrate we are on the same page):
Lady Blackbird - Black Acid Soul - Digital Download:


Vinyl:

But if the original master was limited already before the typical vinyl processes like HPF is used in the preparation of the vinyl, the ”walls of the tent-looking graph would reach the ground anyways, but the walls would look bent where it meets the ground”. Yes I know, strange way of trying to explain it.

I haven't seen this. Why would a HPF need to be inserted? The Foo Fighters example doesn't demonstrate this. Do you have any examples? The next question is how prevalent is this practice? I'll look for something like this in my collection over the next few days.

But the people behind the MasVis program are somewhat wrong about the ”Allpassed crest factor” graph. It can sometimes show that something was done in mastering like if a limiter were used or if EQ were used to change the overall sound.

Ok, although I have not seen an example of where Allpassed crest factor was wrong, but let’s agree to put it on the side lines and not reference it for measurements going forward, we will use the histogram. Sound good?

But I have also seen fairly large deviations in that graph for tracks that I fully well know no such changes has been done to the file, and I know this because they were recorded, mixed, and mastered by myself.

Very cool regarding recording, mixing and mastering your own music!

I have not seen this, can you post a MasVis example? Do you mind sharing a wav example with me?

I live in the northern part of Sweden in town called Luleå. It seems like the climate is very similar this time a year in Ottawa, right now it’s -13c degrees back home.

It’s warming up, we are at -8C this evening - almost time to break out the shorts and tee shirts . Please don't feel obligated to respond while you are on vacation; you should enjoy your vacation. We can continue our conversation when you return.

 

[Matt_Holland]

This randomly popped up in my YouTube feed yesterday. The sound comparisons (which are quite well level matched) are very interesting.

The following video really nails it to the anal-log lunatics.

 

[Slapdick yokel]

If you are a fan of underground music and attend diy shows, it is positive to purchase some merch to help support the band and make touring possible. Once you are an adult the utility of black tshirts with skulls and demons on them is greatly diminished. This leaves a record as the best purchase.

 

[J.M. Noble]

If you are a fan of underground music and attend diy shows, it is positive to purchase some merch to help support the band and make touring possible. Once you are an adult the utility of black tshirts with skulls and demons on them is greatly diminished. This leaves a record as the best purchase.

Yes indeed. I own quite a few vinyl albums that I bought directly from the artists. In some cases they are the only physical media available, with maybe a couple hundred copies in existence.

 

[goat76]

Ok, is this the only song that you have that has these properties?

I have not felt the need to make more analysis as both the vinyl rip I have looked at and the vinyl rip Ian Shepherd looked at show the same thing, that traces of the brick-wall limitation is still seen in the waveform but has only got tilted resulting in higher peaks than was there in the original master.

Touché and agreed - do we agree that a HPF cannot be used as a valid simulation for what happens during the vinyl manufacturing process?

The analog part of the vinyl making process is hard to simulate, but the usual and typical things made to the original master in preparation of making the vinyl such as applying a HPF and so on will still affect the DR reading. You came to another conclusion in your testing than me, if I remember it correctly, the digital track I applied a HPF, mono bass, and a D-esser, ended up with a higher DR. If I was home right now I could easily have tested it again, and maybe I will when I get back.

I understand that you're not claiming there are no vinyl releases with higher DR; there's no need to keep reiterating that point. I got it long ago. I'm not interested in determining the accuracy of the loudness-wars website. There are too many variables beyond our control to make that effort worthwhile.

I see the DR Loudness-war webpage as the main reason for even having this discussion, that’s the database people are always referring to when they claim that vinyl records are generally more dynamic, but who knows how many of those vinyl rips just measures higher because of the processes done that will not actually add to the perceived dynamics. Even if it’s interesting to dive deeper on the matter, our little discussion will likely not reach a world breakthrough on why vinyl rips sometimes seems more dynamics just looking at the DR numbers, not as long as people in general compare the numbers on that website.

Let's establish a common understanding to avoid unnecessary repetition. Please let me know if I’ve overlooked anything or if you disagree with any of the points below:

1 - There are instances of vinyl records with higher DR, attributed to the absence of a limiter in the vinyl-specific digital master, such as Tool's "Fear Inoculum."
2 - There are examples of vinyl records mastered from digital sources that include a limiter, such as the self-titled album by Foo Fighters.
3 - There are instances of vinyl records that are mastered from digital sources without the inclusion of a limiter.
4 - Modern tools can reliably detect all of the above, as demonstrated by the examples mentioned, which I believe we both agree on.

Yes, all those alternatives are out there, and just by looking at the DR numbers (as most people do) will make people believe that almost every single vinyl release is more dynamic sounding than the digital release of the same songs, which isn’t always the case as brick-wall limited songs will often give a higher reading because of phase shifts (that will hardly make the songs sound more dynamic).

The items we are trying to converge on:
1 - Are there examples of vinyl masters that utilize different techniques for creating a vinyl master such as applying a HPF? You have one but we can’t measure it.
2 - How commonly are those techniques used in the mastering profession?
3 - Can modern tools reliably measure DR in those?

1. Yes.
2. Applying a HPF has been a standardized norm since forever. The same goes for mono:ing the bass and using D-esser to avoid cutting problems and replay problems.
3. No, at least not the tools commonly used by most people posting the results on the DR Loudness-war webpage.

I agree, but I’m not concerned with what the general population uses. I would estimate that 99.9% of people don’t even care and don’t use any tools. For me, this is about seeking understanding and uncovering the truth.

That is probably true, but there are still many people who use the Loudness website to determine if the vinyl is the better option than buying the digital release, and that’s where the main problem lies and i think it would have been great if those DR numbers could be trusted for vinyl rips and not just digital releases.

Your tent analogy works perfectly.

Clear tent-pins (posting these examples to illustrate we are on the same page):
Lady Blackbird - Black Acid Soul - Digital Download:
View attachment 419968

Vinyl:
View attachment 419970

Yes, the ”tent-pins” in the first picture indicates that a hard-limiter has been used. There is also large deviations between these files when looking at the ”Normalized average spectrum” graph, which I think counts as a completely different master. It’s not only about 10 dB more energy in the bass, it’s also fairly large differences throughout the whole spectrum. It’s easier to see the fairly large changes far up in the spectrum when looking at a gif.

I haven't seen this. Why would a HPF need to be inserted? The Foo Fighters example doesn't demonstrate this. Do you have any examples? The next question is how prevalent is this practice? I'll look for something like this in my collection over the next few days.

Using a HPF was just an example, it can as likely be any other process lika a mono maker or anything else that changes the phase of a sound file that was already hard-limited, and that can make the ”tent-pins” disappear and ”land the tent on the ground”.

The vinyl version of the song above is actually a great example of that something has been applied making the ”tent-pins” disappear, so the original master used for the vinyl version was likely hard-limited before the typical vinyl preparations. I will try to explain this using the following picture…

When a full-range none-limited master is used, the bottom of the ”tent” is usually bent like number 1 or it goes straight down like in number 2. But when it is bent like in number 3, it can also be an indication that some type of dynamic reduction has been done to the original master before any kind of vinyl preparation has been done causing phase shifts, which can also make the ”tent-pins” disappear and appear to ”land the tent on the ground”. If you would follow the actual curve from the top in the ”Histogram” graph (not any of the curves I have added to the picture) but stop following it when it bend the other way like in number 3, it would never reach the ground and ”tent-pins” would be needed.

I have done tests myself applying processing to a digital file that were hard-limited with the obvious ”tent-pins” and ”flying tent”, but after adding HPF, mono:ing the bass, and so on, the ”tent-pins” where gone and the ”tent was bent down to the ground” in a similar way as can be seen in the vinyl version of the song ”It’s Not That Easy”. Using gain reduction manually on individual peaks will also bend the ”tent walls” in a similar fashion.

Ok, although I have not seen an example of where Allpassed crest factor was wrong, but let’s agree to put it on the side lines and not reference it for measurements going forward, we will use the histogram. Sound good?

I have looked at the MasVis of some of my mixes that was totally free of any changes in mastering, and sometimes the ”Allpassed crest factor” indicates that something was done to the overall sound when I fully well know nothing was done. Other times it has looked fine so I have no clue what the program is using for that calculation.

Very cool regarding recording, mixing and mastering your own music!

I have not seen this, can you post a MasVis example? Do you mind sharing a wav example with me?

I don’t want to share any wav file as the music isn’t finalized, I want the drums to be more dynamic sounding which would likely bump up the overall crest factor a little bit, but it’s noise rock so it will never measure as dynamically as music that are less dense. But the following picture shows the current revision of one of the tracks I’ve done.

It’s warming up, we are at -8C this evening - almost time to break out the shorts and tee shirts . Please don't feel obligated to respond while you are on vacation; you should enjoy your vacation. We can continue our conversation when you return.

There is always a little time here and there to respond, right now I’m sitting in a mini-bus traveling from Pattaya to Bangkok.

 

[MatrixS2000]

The analog part of the vinyl making process is hard to simulate, but the usual and typical things made to the original master in preparation of making the vinyl such as applying a HPF and so on will still affect the DR reading. You came to another conclusion in your testing than me, if I remember it correctly, the digital track I applied a HPF, mono bass, and a D-esser, ended up with a higher DR. If I was home right now I could easily have tested it again, and maybe I will when I get back.

I came to the same conclusion as you, that is why I said I was wrong originally. But further testing showed that doing the above introduced a third waveform which was not the waveform coming off the record. I found this by reversing the HPF on the digital file, then applying the same to the vinyl rip. The digital reverted back to its original lower DR, the vinyl remained at its original higher DR.

I see the DR Loudness-war webpage as the main reason for even having this discussion, that’s the database people are always referring to when they claim that vinyl records are generally more dynamic, but who knows how many of those vinyl rips just measures higher because of the processes done that will not actually add to the perceived dynamics. Even if it’s interesting to dive deeper on the matter, our little discussion will likely not reach a world breakthrough on why vinyl rips sometimes seems more dynamics just looking at the DR numbers, not as long as people in general compare the numbers on that website.

I can tune out this noise, but I understand why it might resonate more with you. For me, the noise I struggle to ignore comes from those "believers" who insist that Ethernet cables and switches impact audio quality. This probably stems from our backgrounds.

Yes, all those alternatives are out there, and just by looking at the DR numbers (as most people do) will make people believe that almost every single vinyl release is more dynamic sounding than the digital release of the same songs, which isn’t always the case as brick-wall limited songs will often give a higher reading because of phase shifts (that will hardly make the songs sound more dynamic).

1. Yes.
2. Applying a HPF has been a standardized norm since forever. The same goes for mono:ing the bass and using D-esser to avoid cutting problems and replay problems.
3. No, at least not the tools commonly used by most people posting the results on the DR Loudness-war webpage.

2. Do you know who the artist was for that "My Silver Linings" track?

Yes, the ”tent-pins” in the first picture indicates that a hard-limiter has been used. There is also large deviations between these files when looking at the ”Normalized average spectrum” graph, which I think counts as a completely different master. It’s not only about 10 dB more energy in the bass, it’s also fairly large differences throughout the whole spectrum. It’s easier to see the fairly large changes far up in the spectrum when looking at a gif.

Using a HPF was just an example, it can as likely be any other process lika a mono maker or anything else that changes the phase of a sound file that was already hard-limited, and that can make the ”tent-pins” disappear and ”land the tent on the ground”.

The vinyl version of the song above is actually a great example of that something has been applied making the ”tent-pins” disappear, so the original master used for the vinyl version was likely hard-limited before the typical vinyl preparations. I will try to explain this using the following picture…

When a full-range none-limited master is used, the bottom of the ”tent” is usually bent like number 1 or it goes straight down like in number 2. But when it is bent like in number 3, it can also be an indication that some type of dynamic reduction has been done to the original master before any kind of vinyl preparation has been done causing phase shifts, which can also make the ”tent-pins” disappear and appear to ”land the tent on the ground”. If you would follow the actual curve from the top in the ”Histogram” graph (not any of the curves I have added to the picture) but stop following it when it bend the other way like in number 3, it would never reach the ground and ”tent-pins” would be needed.

I have done tests myself applying processing to a digital file that were hard-limited with the obvious ”tent-pins” and ”flying tent”, but after adding HPF, mono:ing the bass, and so on, the ”tent-pins” where gone and the ”tent was bent down to the ground” in a similar way as can be seen in the vinyl version of the song ”It’s Not That Easy”. Using gain reduction manually on individual peaks will also bend the ”tent walls” in a similar fashion.

I selected that one because of the curves it displayed. The information you provided in the green markups is new to me—thanks for those insights!

I find this case interesting. It seems to fall somewhere in the middle: not as limited as the digital version, no HPF as it is not in the spectrum, yet other factors are there that contribute to those curves. I EQ all of my needle drops, but I don't observe those curves when I compare the raw needle drop to the EQ'd version. For example, if I go back to the Tool Pneuma raw vinyl rip and apply EQ and 10dB of gain to get it to normal listening levels, here is what MasVis shows:


You can see the EQ and gain in the spectrum, as well as the gain in the histogram, but I don't see any curving similar to what we see in the Lady Blackbird track. I suspect that the curve in the Lady Blackbird track isn't a result of EQ, so I'm still trying to determine the underlying cause of those curves.

I don’t want to share any wav file as the music isn’t finalized, I want the drums to be more dynamic sounding which would likely bump up the overall crest factor a little bit, but it’s noise rock so it will never measure as dynamically as music that are less dense. But the following picture shows the current revision of one of the tracks I’ve done.

Completely understand.

There is always a little time here and there to respond, right now I’m sitting in a mini-bus traveling from Pattaya to Bangkok.

Cheers and have fun in Bangkok!

EDIT: not sure why my animated gif is not working as it is working on my mac, so will insert thumbnails.

 

[goat76]

I came to the same conclusion as you, that is why I said I was wrong originally. But further testing showed that doing the above introduced a third waveform which was not the waveform coming off the record. I found this by reversing the HPF on the digital file, then applying the same to the vinyl rip. The digital reverted back to its original lower DR, the vinyl remained at its original higher DR.

How do you reverse a HPF when it is “imprinted” on a track, do you use a low-shelf filter trying to regain the bass you took out?

If the vinyl already had a HPF applied on the master used to create it in the first place, I’m not sure there is that much change to expect by applying yet another HPF on that file that is already reduced in bass output.

2. Do you know who the artist was for that "My Silver Linings" track?

First Aid Kit

First Aid Kit - Stay Gold

Listen to Stay Gold on your streaming service

tidal.com

I selected that one because of the curves it displayed. The information you provided in the green markups is new to me—thanks for those insights!

It’s definitely some type of dynamic reduction that has occurred when the curve is bent like that making it “hit the ground” in an almost vertical fashion.

I find this case interesting. It seems to fall somewhere in the middle: not as limited as the digital version, no HPF as it is not in the spectrum, yet other factors are there that contribute to those curves. I EQ all of my needle drops, but I don't observe those curves when I compare the raw needle drop to the EQ'd version. For example, if I go back to the Tool Pneuma raw vinyl rip and apply EQ and 10dB of gain to get it to normal listening levels, here is what MasVis shows:

View attachment 420115 View attachment 420118
You can see the EQ and gain in the spectrum, as well as the gain in the histogram, but I don't see any curving similar to what we see in the Lady Blackbird track. I suspect that the curve in the Lady Blackbird track isn't a result of EQ, so I'm still trying to determine the underlying cause of those curves.

The track by Tool will not have that outward bent curve “hitting the ground almost vertically” as the track by Lady Blackbird, because the Tool song was never dynamically hard-limited and you kept it from clipping when you raised the highest peak to -0.32 dB.

If you instead take that Tool vinyl rip you raised the level of, and apply a hard-limiter to reduce the crest factor as much as the digital release, and render it as a new file. Then you apply a HPF and mono the bass on that new file and render that to a another new file, then you will likely end up with a Histogram with a similarly bent curve ”hitting the ground almost vertically” as the track by Lady Blackbird.

 

[killdozzer]

@goat76 Thank you for all the info and work. I really appreciate it.

Yes indeed. I own quite a few vinyl albums that I bought directly from the artists. In some cases they are the only physical media available, with maybe a couple hundred copies in existence.

Let's just be fair and say that this is rarely ever the case.

 

[beagleman]

One is not truly able to measure DR values of vinyl.

Due to many small differences in how it is made, AND its built in limitations, it alters the DR number, partially due to a higher noise floor, and distortion on really loud parts.

I posted a whole web site, going into more detail about this. Vinyl and tape simply are not able to be measured accurately in respects to a true "DR" number the way a digital product or file can.

 

[raymondvanmil]

Agree that the quality is not better or even close l, most of the time, but there are a few reasons.

I'll start with the one mentioned the least. When I stand in front of my records they are sorted a certain way, it a different way to choose what to play, with you hand and not just your thumb, you don't have to type. There is the row of jazz, the row of underground hiphop, all the led zeppelin records, weird 12inch riddims, some covers with photos I shot.

A different interface to music. Tired of screens when I walk away from the pc to cook and want to listen to some music.

Nostalgia. Its fysical, it has cover art, a history when I bought it. Putting on Miles Davis bitches brew on vinyl is a different experience than looking it up on Roon.

When I don't use my headphones, can't really tell any quality loss..

I do own plenty records which or not available digital.

Having said all that, I play maybe 10% vinyl. 5% cd rest roon/tidal/poweramp.

 

[MattHooper]

But can anyone explain the word “timbre?”

 

[Robin L]

But can anyone explain the word “timbre?”

Done:

 

[killdozzer]

Yep, as I mentioned above: the economics of loudness dictates smashed releases for digital formats.

That's bull. It's just a vinyl-head talking point.