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Can anyone explain the vinyl renaissance?

beagleman

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Yes, vinyl sounds, for the most part, perfectly fine and is certainly 'good enough'. If I didn't have a choice I could easily live with it. But I do have a choice and when you actually compare them then pretty much any digital version is obviously better than the vinyl - both sonically and ergonomically. However, I do miss the lazy saturday mornings rummaging through the record bins at my local used vinyl emporium.
Have a few "audiophile" friends over the last couple decades that just swear Vinyl sounds far superior to any digital format.

When finally able to visit a couple of them in other states over the last few years, and to see their fairly high end tables and set ups, yeah it did sound great for sure. It DID sound different than the same CD version of the several albums we tried out for sure.

But those changes were never able to be pinned down to it BEING vinyl, versus simply a different mastering or EQ changes their vinyl rigs imparted to the sound.
In fact, one of these friends, went as far as to later burn some of those vinyl albums for me, onto memory sticks in CD quality sound and mail them to me.

From my memory at least, it still preserved the Very similar sound his turntable had when listening to it live.
So was it digital/analog OR just different sounding vinyl and analog set ups that accounted for the changes??
 

MattHooper

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Yeah, I mean for Years it was all I listened to, and it did sound great for the most part.

But I kept thinking to myself, "If those dozen things could be cured, it would be fantastic sounding and not annoy me",,,,,,,,,,

Well those dozen things WERE partially cured, when I got into open reel and found a batch of old retail made classical tapes, but the tapes had NEW problems, that the vinyl did not.......HISS.............and inconvenience of playback....tapes are a pain to deal with.

Then a few years later....CD came along and at least seemed to cure all the problems of the other 2 media I was into. For most intents, it seemed like the media no longer imparted some big change to the music, that was OBVIOUS to me.

Good to see you are having fun with RtR. For me I admit RtR is totally unapealing since I view it as cumbersome and a hassle. But then...I go and play records, which are their own type of hassle. I guess I prefer the aesthetics and particular hassle of records over RtR, not to mention the lack of content for RtR. And, probably, I'm scarred from having worked with analog tape in many forms for film and post production sound since the 80's. I look back on it as a hassle that I'm glad to be rid of.
 

beagleman

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Good to see you are having fun with RtR. For me I admit RtR is totally unapealing since I view it as cumbersome and a hassle. But then...I go and play records, which are their own type of hassle. I guess I prefer the aesthetics and particular hassle of records over RtR, not to mention the lack of content for RtR. And, probably, I'm scarred from having worked with analog tape in many forms for film and post production sound since the 80's. I look back on it as a hassle that I'm glad to be rid of.

Oh trust me RtR was a total pain, but I found a batch of many older classical titles, that were made Two track, at 7.5ips and they sounded FANTASTIC.

I mean maybe it was the music or something but unreal channel separation, very clean highs with no distortion etc...it was better than what I had heard with vinyl, but Hiss ruined it at times.

Anything at 3.75 ips to me was semi-useless and NOT great fidelity., but merely fairly good sounding.

Only those 2 track 7.5ips ruled!
 

MakeMineVinyl

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Were those tapes 2 track as in half track as opposed to 4 track where there are two 'sides' of the tape?

I was into tape far earlier than vinyl (70s), and yes, they have their own problems. The main problem with pre-recorded tapes is that they were high speed duplicated at 8 times normal speed. This gave frequency response errors, excessive hiss, dropouts, electronic compression and a general a degraded sound quality verses something duplicated in real time. No tape duplication facilities could afford to duplicate in real time and the tapes would have cost a fortune. And the tape stock they used wasn't anything to write home about either. I consider records of the day as sounding better than these tapes; one has hiss, the other has surface noise. Take your choice.

Fiddling with threading a tape isn't an issue for me and its simpler than playing a record.
 

Sal1950

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Yeah, I mean for Years it was all I listened to, and it did sound great for the most part.

But I kept thinking to myself, "If those dozen things could be cured, it would be fantastic sounding and not annoy me",,,,,,,,,,

Well those dozen things WERE partially cured, when I got into open reel and found a batch of old retail made classical tapes, but the tapes had NEW problems, that the vinyl did not.......HISS.............and inconvenience of playback....tapes are a pain to deal with.

Then a few years later....CD came along and at least seemed to cure all the problems of the other 2 media I was into. For most intents, it seemed like the media no longer imparted some big change to the music, that was OBVIOUS to me.
Amen, right on point.

Oh trust me RtR was a total pain, but I found a batch of many older classical titles, that were made Two track, at 7.5ips and they sounded FANTASTIC.

I mean maybe it was the music or something but unreal channel separation, very clean highs with no distortion etc...it was better than what I had heard with vinyl, but Hiss ruined it at times.

Anything at 3.75 ips to me was semi-useless and NOT great fidelity., but merely fairly good sounding.

Only those 2 track 7.5ips ruled!
I never found anything in rock for RTR that wasn't 3.75 and that didn't stand up to vinyl for quality.
After a few years I sold my RTR for lack of any decent prerecorded media and doing needle drops of vinyl was a waste of time
I never got into cassette's, car audio was never my thing and for home use the same problems as RTR, only worse, 1.75ips :facepalm:
CD was a God sent for me. After it came along, I could never justify spending any more of my audio budget on vinyl.
 

pseudoid

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...I never got into cassette's, car audio was never my thing...
What else can you possibly do during any road-trip (@50cents/gallon days) if you did not have any road tunes???
Smoking whatever doesn't count!:facepalm:
 
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beagleman

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Were those tapes 2 track as in half track as opposed to 4 track where there are two 'sides' of the tape?

I was into tape far earlier than vinyl (70s), and yes, they have their own problems. The main problem with pre-recorded tapes is that they were high speed duplicated at 8 times normal speed. This gave frequency response errors, excessive hiss, dropouts, electronic compression and a general a degraded sound quality verses something duplicated in real time. No tape duplication facilities could afford to duplicate in real time and the tapes would have cost a fortune. And the tape stock they used wasn't anything to write home about either. I consider records of the day as sounding better than these tapes; one has hiss, the other has surface noise. Take your choice.

Fiddling with threading a tape isn't an issue for me and its simpler than playing a record.

They were TRUE half track.....just a Left/Right channel on the tape, if you flipped it, it would just play backwards.

I agree, they were not perfect for sure, but still memorable sound wise. These were some older 1960s audiophile series, forget what tape they used, but they detailed the whole process and how they were made on the box the reels came in.
I "think" they were duplicated at a lower speed than normal retail stuff for sure, but doubt many bought these, OR that many were made.

Just gave me an "Idea" of how good commercial open reel "Could have sounded", if they tried to make them great.
 

MakeMineVinyl

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I have a few true 2 track tapes; they were from the 1950s before 4 track became widespread. I know there were a few companies which released tapes duplicated at slower speed, but the major labels were all 8x, and the quality was lacking. Ampex had a process called "EX+" which they used for their classical duplicates in the 1970s, and the quality was a bit better, but they were still duplicated at 8x on regular tape.

Yes, if pre-recorded tapes had been duplicated in real time, the quality would have been spectacular compared to records of the day. The cost would have been spectacular too unfortunately. You can buy 15 ips duplicates done right today, but the selection is small and the tapes cost almost $500. :confused:
 

KankRat

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Does the vinyl renaissance make sense to you because it sure doesn't to me
Hello. This is my first post.
No, actually I can't believe it happened. Worse yet after having sold all my records (mostly Japanese imports and MoFi's) in the 90's I can't believe it's happened to ME!! I don't think vinyl sounds any better, at least not with my gear. But under good conditions I think it sounds good enough and often as good as a cd. I think the recording is way more important than anything else.
I am amused by rummaging thru thrift store bins, inhaling dust and mildew only on rare occasions to find something worthwhile that isn't totally scratched and nasty and coated in the previous owners DNA. For whatever inexplicable reason this has become somewhat a hobby.
I think my motivations today are more record collector now than audiophile. It's a pity that new vinyl is so expensive and even used stuff in record stores- crazy prices.
My nieces and nephews inherited their parents collections and they love spinning records.
 

MakeMineVinyl

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Hello. This is my first post.
No, actually I can't believe it happened. Worse yet after having sold all my records (mostly Japanese imports and MoFi's) in the 90's I can't believe it's happened to ME!! I don't think vinyl sounds any better, at least not with my gear. But under good conditions I think it sounds good enough and often as good as a cd. I think the recording is way more important than anything else.
I am amused by rummaging thru thrift store bins, inhaling dust and mildew only on rare occasions to find something worthwhile that isn't totally scratched and nasty and coated in the previous owners DNA. For whatever inexplicable reason this has become somewhat a hobby.
I think my motivations today are more record collector now than audiophile. It's a pity that new vinyl is so expensive and even used stuff in record stores- crazy prices.
My nieces and nephews inherited their parents collections and they love spinning records.
Much of the appeal of vinyl is the relatively richer tactile experience of album photos, liner notes, and the physical object. Of course there's the coolness factor of everything mid-century driving a lot of it. However, I'm from the mid-century and nobody ever accused me of being cool, or particularly collectable. :facepalm:
 

KankRat

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Much of the appeal of vinyl is the relatively richer tactile experience of album photos, liner notes, and the physical object. Of course there's the coolness factor of everything mid-century driving a lot of it. However, I'm from the mid-century and nobody ever accused me of being cool, or particularly collectable. :facepalm:
That is true. I think that a lot stems out of the fact that you have young people who never bought a CD even. They went straight into the mp3 world. They are not into albums, they are into songs. So when they see a record it's like "Holy Cow, that's cool."
Don't quote me on this but, I read somewhere that Fujifilm's highest profiting item is not their awesome digital cameras, it's the instant cameras and film. What a surprise.
 

KankRat

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While records never actually "died" they were certainly coughing up blood at one point and almost completely worthless (like CDs now). Digital did not kill vinyl. The Sony Walkman and car cassette players did and the realization that one could take music with. Cassettes were the biggest selling media at one point. including with me.
"I prefer the sound of a cassette" said no one...ever. Until now. Well I haven't actually heard anybody say this, but there is talk of them making a comeback.
 

EJ3

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While records never actually "died" they were certainly coughing up blood at one point and almost completely worthless (like CDs now). Digital did not kill vinyl. The Sony Walkman and car cassette players did and the realization that one could take music with. Cassettes were the biggest selling media at one point. including with me.
"I prefer the sound of a cassette" said no one...ever. Until now. Well I haven't actually heard anybody say this, but there is talk of them making a comeback.
I recently bought the movie soundtrack to "Guardians of the Galaxy" on cassette. The sound is terrible because there is no Dolby on the recorded cassette.
 

pseudoid

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I recently bought the movie soundtrack to "Guardians of the Galaxy" on cassette. The sound is terrible because there is no Dolby on the recorded cassette.
That would bring up a question which never needed to be answered before the digital music era::oops:
Would the sound quality be 'better' if you had purchased the digital version of this soundtrack and then dupe it to a cassette, using Dolby NR?
... but only if you insist on nostalgia of cassettes; yet, you can never make a cassette 'restomod'!
 

EJ3

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That would bring up a question which never needed to be answered before the digital music era::oops:
Would the sound quality be 'better' if you had purchased the digital version of this soundtrack and then dupe it to a cassette, using Dolby NR?
... but only if you insist on nostalgia of cassettes; yet, you can never make a cassette 'restomod'!
The answer is that it would likely be better than if I dubbed it to cassette from an LP. But even the LP dub would be way better than the purchased pre-recorded Cassette.
I have 2 of each: cassette decks & REEL TO REEL tape decks. Unfortunately, DOLBY doesn't want any cassette business anymore. Modern cassette decks, such as TASCAM, don't have DOLBY because of it being unavailable. But many people do use them as a portable studio. Maybe you don't attend Record Day events. But there are a number of releases that come out ONLY ON CASSETTE. And some of them I like to listen to.
But, had I known that the soundtrack was not "DOLBYIZED", I would not have bought it in the cassette format.
I would have just recorded whatever format I got it in: to cassette. My vehicles make enough mechanical noise that I many times go for months without turning the car stereo on. But sometimes I want some driving music. In that environment, SINAD is not applicable and cassettes are fine. I play vinyl & cassette more that I play CD's, DVD's, Blu Ray's, 4K & digital off of my computer. Stream? Never have but doesn't mean I won't.
 

JP

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Any chance you could run some? None of us have access to the same discs you're talking about.

This is the runout of a lacquer - second play. At about 15s I lift the needle - rather obvious.

 

atmasphere

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This is the runout of a lacquer - second play. At about 15s I lift the needle - rather obvious.

At second play the lacquer won't be as quiet! How was the lacquer cut generated- was the stylus/cutter head optimized for lowest noise (tangentially correct, cut angle, cut depth, cut pressure, stylus temperature)? How long was the lacquer allowed to sit after the cut was made? Its these rather pesky questions that cause me to rely on my own experience rather than anecdote.
 

Ported

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I must confess that I have not read all 50 od pages of this discussion so not sure if any other (ex) sound engineers have posted... But it would be interesting to hear how many folk who have been involved in the recording process would ever suggest vinyl (especially 33 LP) was a good facsimile of the work done in the studio.
To me it is a printing press of a process where the outcomes have losses and colourations so it's not very close to the original. If you like all your pictures to look like an old 35mm film then it's probably the format for you... If you want maximum possibilities in sound then you are not going to hear it in this format.
A lot of true masters are very up front and in your face... They used to have to be made that way to stand any chance of surviving the"printing process" to cassettes or vinyl where they always become much softer..
So to answer the subject line as an ex engineer I have no idea why there is a resurgence of the use of vinyl .. beyond me if you want to get close to the very best recordings.
 

JP

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At second play the lacquer won't be as quiet! How was the lacquer cut generated- was the stylus/cutter head optimized for lowest noise (tangentially correct, cut angle, cut depth, cut pressure, stylus temperature)? How long was the lacquer allowed to sit after the cut was made? Its these rather pesky questions that cause me to rely on my own experience rather than anecdote.

I wasn't there when it was cut. Cut was about 6 days old when I did the needle drop. How are you addressing tangentiality and cut pressure?

Understandable that you trust your own experience, but as you won't provide any data your experience is anecdotal to everyone else. Run a spiral on an off-cut and post it.
 
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