Can anyone explain the vinyl renaissance?

[Frank Dernie]

When I set up my cartridge, it’s clear that settings like impedance on the phono stage and tracking weight affect the sound.
With tracking weight: to light, and the sound gets too thin and bright. Too heavy and it goes the opposite direction, too rich, sluggish and more dull.

So when it comes to the last bit of dialling in my cartridge set up, I tend to compare the sound of my vinyl playback to my digital source, using both media media that came from the same original masters. Of course there’s also the issue that even taken from the same original master tapes, the mastering for the vinyl may be slightly different. But ultimately I can get them really close, so the vinyl playback sounds pretty neutral. And then I tend to tick the cartridge weight just a little bit heavier, erring on the side of a slightly richer sound.

As I’ve mentioned before, In comparison with digital counterparts, I can sometimes perceive the vinyl playback as conveying a bit more of a warm, organic, human quality, especially to voices.

One striking example, I remember was comparing my ripped CD playback of an Air album with the vinyl version, set them up, matched levels (not with a voltmeter, but best I could) played them at the same time and with a remote button I could switch between the vinyl playback and the CD version, and when the female voices came on the CD version Had the voices sounding more like recordings, crispy edged and artificial. On the vinyl version it sounded like they suddenly became human beings singing between the speakers. (or more in that direction.). In that particular case
“ warmer” certainly seemed a reasonable way to describe the sound of the vinyl over the digital. (before this term goes on someone’s naughty list, I have said before that, I don’t think we can say that vinyl is my default “ warm sounding.”)

There is certainly a lot you can play around with in a record player with the cartridge setup being the biggest.
Changing the tracking weight within the working range should not really change the cartridge sound if it has a linear magnetic circuit but the traditional layout sensor layout does not have a linear magnetic circuit, so changing tracking force moves the sensing element into a slightly different location within this non-consistent magnetic circuit and changes the response. Big variations can cause bad non linearities, high distortion and record damage but around the "spec" range you are just adjusting the FR.

On top of that cartridges vary a huge amoun't, the ones with a flat and even frequency response, like the Shure V15 went out of fashion when reassuringly expensive hand made boutique offerings were all the rage.
I mentioned how rich Koetsus sound. They are very rolled off as are some others.
By chance I was at a birthday party on Saturday and one of my old mates told me he had just sent his Audio Technica ART something-or-other for service and fitted his old Koetsu Urushi and was was eulogising about having forgotten how gorgeous it was...

Not surprising there is a diffenence eh!?

 

[Frank Dernie]

At best good vinyl playback rivals digital playback. It’s amazing how good vinyl can sound and how little difference subjectively there is between an immaculate record and the digital version of the same master. For such old and primitive tech it really is staggeringly good. It shows to me how little SINAD is needed to be able to have a fully immersive, throughly enjoyable listening experience.

I agree about not needing a very high SINAD to enjoy music but that is because music doesn't usually exploit the full sound sensitivity range of human ears so isn't necessary for listening to music.
In fact using the full dynamic range would bring problems since after a very loud sound you may not be able to hear a quiet sound again for quite a while (seconds to minutes, even permanently).

OTOH as in my previous reply there is a very, very big difference in response between "high end" cartridges which both allows people to dick about with what they want to hear, and make blatantly audible differences between record players which won't be technically possible with digital.
I have 4 record players and they all sound different to each other, though I don't play LPs very often any more.
You would have to be pretty deaf not to notice a big difference between these 2 cartridges.

Koetsu Urushi Vermillion Cartridge Lab Report

Lab Report A schism is widening in the world of pick-up design. On the one hand there are brands pushing at the edge of suspension design, generator efficiency, low tip and moving mass, while employing sophisticated yokes and body materials. Recent examples include the Ortofon MC Anna Diamond...

www.hifinews.com

Audio-Technica AT-ART20 Cartridge Lab Report

Lab Report Although the AT-ART20's moving-coil 'circuit' is based on that debuted in the AT-ART9XI, Audio-Technica has beefed up the flux density of the magnet (rather than increase the coil-turns and moving mass of the mech) for a claimed 15% uplift in output. The latter is rated at 0.5mV and...

www.hifinews.com

 

[krabapple]

After I received my MS in Physics, I have worked for over 30 years, designing and implementing sophisticated electronic and optical systems for communications, military, and medical R&D, including the creation of one of the first laser driven optical readers for video and audio . I have created, developed, and used extremely sensitive optical devices. I have become intimitely familiar in the methods used to characterize a system, signal, noise, distortion, gain, saturation, bandwidth, quantum efficiency, optical interference and diffraction and so on. I use quantum mechanics daily.
I have used these skills on my sound system. Although my equipment is not as complete as Amir's I can measure quite a few parameters. I regularly use my Benchmark A/D, TrueRTA and REW, computer, oscilloscope, and DVM to chacterize the performance of every one of my components, every one. I do play digital. And I characterize digital components also. And yes they do test better.

I am the most technically minded person I know. I enjoy this site because it provides an alternative to the more qualitative reviews.

Now you're on forum about audio science, with lots of people who are are more technically-minded than you. How are you liking it so far?

And I can't help but be aware of what my ears say to me. Yes, this is a conundrum. I will say flatly that great specs do not necessarily create the best sound. Great specs are a guide to good audio. I do not think that the human race has designed a test for audio equipment that captures the ear, mind and emotion that occurs when listening to music. Not yet.

It's not a conundrum. It's just a fact:
if you attribute what you hear to a definite cause, based on sighted evaluation, you could be very, very wrong.

So why not just be careful about doing that?

I do think that there were a few extremely talented mastering enginers at Decca during the 60s and 70s. After that, the LP mastering skill seemed to drop significantly, probably because CDs became the medium to work on. The first CDs created were done very poorly, no bass and screechy highs. I know, I lived through it. This skill has improved.

I did too. That's a common myth.
Go hang out on forum full of self professed golden ears ....who consider first generation CDs to be best in class thanks to their relatively hands-off mastering.

 

[krabapple]

Thank you for your criticism.
I am clearly biased. But it is the method I've chosen and one that I will stick with. I will never have the knowledge, experience and education needed to do what you've outlined above. I am comfortable with my methods. I understand my limitations.

If you did, you wouldn't be making the claims you make. Your language would be more nuanced.

 

[krabapple]

I don't see anyone being enraged. Just people correcting you on the validity and significance of the story you told. The closest I saw to "enragement" was the odd eye-rolll here and there.

There's a certain type who, becoming defensive over their posts being critiqued, assuage the hurt to their ego by imagining their interlocutors as 'enraged' , rendered bereft of reason (or reasonableness).

Rather than simply: 'right'.
Maybe bemused.
Possibly even amused. ;>

 

[Mean & Green]

I agree about not needing a very high SINAD to enjoy music but that is because music doesn't usually exploit the full sound sensitivity range of human ears so isn't necessary for listening to music.
In fact using the full dynamic range would bring problems since after a very loud sound you may not be able to hear a quiet sound again for quite a while (seconds to minutes, even permanently).

OTOH as in my previous reply there is a very, very big difference in response between "high end" cartridges which both allows people to dick about with what they want to hear, and make blatantly audible differences between record players which won't be technically possible with digital.
I have 4 record players and they all sound different to each other, though I don't play LPs very often any more.
You would have to be pretty deaf not to notice a big difference between these 2 cartridges.

Koetsu Urushi Vermillion Cartridge Lab Report

Lab Report A schism is widening in the world of pick-up design. On the one hand there are brands pushing at the edge of suspension design, generator efficiency, low tip and moving mass, while employing sophisticated yokes and body materials. Recent examples include the Ortofon MC Anna Diamond...

www.hifinews.com

Audio-Technica AT-ART20 Cartridge Lab Report

Lab Report Although the AT-ART20's moving-coil 'circuit' is based on that debuted in the AT-ART9XI, Audio-Technica has beefed up the flux density of the magnet (rather than increase the coil-turns and moving mass of the mech) for a claimed 15% uplift in output. The latter is rated at 0.5mV and...

www.hifinews.com

For sure there can be and there are significant differences between carts and pre amp loading also plays a big part.

However none of that makes the vinyl format itself warm or rich by nature - it just isn’t. Coloured systems on the other hand are just that, and more neutral carts will reproduce recordings more accurately without added warmth or rolled off treble much closer to the fidelity of a digital format. Vinyl is not by default a rolled off warm format, but playback systems can vary a lot.

 

[antcollinet]

However none of that makes the vinyl format itself warm or rich by nature - it just isn’t.

And that was not what was claimed - despite the straw man you seem determined to construct.

What was said (that you seem to be replying to in post #9840 (though not totally clear, since you didn't quote what you were replying to) was:

Many, indeed most IME of the popular high end cartridges, I am thinking Koetsu, have a very "rich" frequency response and I enjoy them despite it.

IE specifically some cartridges. Not the format itself.

 

[PstrfZ]

IMHO vinyl only makes sense for some old records, those for which there is no decent CD version. Not all digital conversions have been done in the best way. But for most people it's just a fad.

 

[antcollinet]

IMHO vinyl only makes sense for some old records, those for which there is no decent CD version.

If we were talking only about sound quality I'd agree. For many people here, that is not the only topic.

But for most people it's just a fad.

Well also for many people here it is "just a fad" that has lasted for decades. Which sort of makes it, at least for them.... not a fad.

 

[Mean & Green]

And that was not what was claimed - despite the straw man you seem determined to construct.

What was said (that you seem to be replying to in post #9840 (though not totally clear, since you didn't quote what you were replying to) was:

IE specifically some cartridges. Not the format itself.

Not claimed by that particular member in that post no, but there has been an undertone eluding to the warmth of the format over the last ten pages or so (I haven’t went back and counted). My response to the post about cartridges was more about highlighting my original point about what I was saying about the format.

I’ve never disputed cart differences and I’m not trying to make a straw man argument, I found the mention of carts unrelated to what I was saying when I was quoted by Frank and I was just clarifying what my point was.

 

[antcollinet]

Not claimed by that particular member in that post no, but there has been an undertone eluding to the warmth of the format over the last ten pages or so

(I haven’t went back and counted)

Well I have. The browser search function is very helpful.

In the 10 pages prior to your post, "warm" or "warmth" has appeared in 3 posts. One of which was saying "vinyl isn't warm"

Of the two remaining, one was that of @Frank Dernie's that I quoted, and the other was immediately prior to your post by @MattHooper who specifically stated he didn't think vinyl as a format was warm.


So it seems you are inventing statements that haven't been made - the very definition of a straw man.

 

[Robin L]

Well I have. The browser search function is very helpful.

In the 10 pages prior to your post, "warm" or "warmth" has appeared in 3 posts. One of which was saying "vinyl isn't warm"

Of the two remaining, one was that of @Frank Dernie's that I quoted, and the other was immediately prior to your post by @MattHooper who specifically stated he didn't think vinyl as a format was warm.


So it seems you are inventing an argument where one doesn't exist.

Well, it's a frequently repeated myth out there in the blogosphere:

Why Does Vinyl Sound Warmer? (Explained) - Loudspeaker & Acoustic Engineering Design

So when we say vinyl sounds warmer, it's because the medium itself carries the sonic imprint of the original recording. The playback process reproduces it in

engineeryoursound.com

One moment, please...

One moment, please...

The Sound Of Vinyl: Unforgettable Audio Experience | SoundScapeHQ

Discover the unique sound quality of vinyl records, learn about pressing and manufacturing, and explore the benefits of listening to vinyl.

soundscapehq.com

Don't look at me - I quit vinyl five years ago, never to look back.

But there's lots of folks who buy the line that "analog sounds warmer" - usually without asking why they would think such a thing.

 

[raif71]

I've nothing to say in this thread until now. Saw my son flipping through vinyl albums at a local book store. So far he's listening music via phone or computer or in the car via BT. I told him that he needs a record player for the vinyl and also mentioned that his late grandfather has a record player. I think maybe he's planning to get a vinyl setup in the future.

 

[Newman]

Well I have. The browser search function is very helpful. In the 10 pages prior to your post, "warm" or "warmth" has appeared in 3 posts. One of which was saying "vinyl isn't warm". Of the two remaining, one was that of @Frank Dernie's that I quoted, and the other was immediately prior to your post by @MattHooper who specifically stated he didn't think vinyl as a format was warm.

So it seems you are inventing statements that haven't been made - the very definition of a straw man.

That's a bit harsh. It has definitely been a recurring theme, link. Maybe you missed it, or maybe you are taking advantage of @Mean & Green mentioning 'the last ten pages or so'.

But he definitely is not "inventing statements that haven't been made". The irony is that my link shows it was @Mean & Green who said 2 months ago that people aren't saying vinyl is warm sounding, and I pointed out that they are. Maybe it's my fault that he is now saying that people are referring to vinyl as warm sounding.

cheers

 

[Mean & Green]

Well I have. The browser search function is very helpful.

In the 10 pages prior to your post, "warm" or "warmth" has appeared in 3 posts. One of which was saying "vinyl isn't warm"

Of the two remaining, one was that of @Frank Dernie's that I quoted, and the other was immediately prior to your post by @MattHooper who specifically stated he didn't think vinyl as a format was warm.


So it seems you are inventing statements that haven't been made - the very definition of a straw man.

I’m not pedantic enough to go back and cherry pick specific comments. I’ve ran through the thread since my last contributions and picked up on comments eluding to richness or warmth or whatever similar terminology was used. KEM in particular has received some pushback for his comments, but I’m not looking to single people out I was making a broad statement that could be applied to some of the more recent activity in the discussion, rather than quoting people word for word.

That's a bit harsh. It has definitely been a recurring theme, link. Maybe you missed it, or maybe you are taking advantage of @Mean & Green mentioning 'the last ten pages or so'.

But he definitely is not "inventing statements that haven't been made". The irony is that my link shows it was @Mean & Green who said 2 months ago that people aren't saying vinyl is warm sounding, and I pointed out that they are. Maybe it's my fault that he is now saying that people are referring to vinyl as warm sounding.

cheers

Indeed I have previously defended the majority of the posts within this conversation supporting the format, but more recently there seems to have been a shift to nonsense.

It’s all your fault Newman with your self - fulfilling prophecy. (That’s meant as a joke)

 

[antcollinet]

Well, it's a frequently repeated myth out there in the blogosphere:

Yes it is - but a much less repeated myth here. And almost never from the "regulars"

 

[Mean & Green]

Yes it is - but a much less repeated myth here. And almost never from the "regulars"

Indeed and if you check out Newman’s post above and if you are bothered enough to look back at my history within this thread you’ll see I’ve said pretty much exactly that.

 

[antcollinet]

Indeed and if you check out Newman’s post above and if you are bothered enough to look back at my history within this thread you’ll see I’ve said pretty much exactly that.

Newman (IME) also has a long history of misprepresenting what others say (I'm sure he will disagree with me). It is one of the reasons I can't see his post above.

 

[PstrfZ]

If we were talking only about sound quality I'd agree. For many people here, that is not the only topic.


Well also for many people here it is "just a fad" that has lasted for decades. Which sort of makes it, at least for them.... not a fad.

Forgive me, I'm not a native speaker and wouldn't want to be misunderstood. I have enormous respect for vinyl; I believe it’s the most beautiful format, both aesthetically and because it sets you up in the right mindset for listening. But for a record released today, where the entire production chain is digital, buying the vinyl version doesn’t make much sense to me. It does if you’re considering it from the perspective of maintaining consistency in your collection or a fondness for the vinyl format, but sonically, I don't find valid reasons. In this sense, I was referring to it as a trend. I was particularly thinking of the new generations: I read that many people buy them without being able to listen to them, purely for collection purposes. That said, everyone’s passion for music is a good thing, whatever format it may be in.

 

[DSJR]

You talk about mastering and how the Decca guys did it. But were you there? I wasn't. I'm an Electronic Engineer and I have been involved in studios where music is being recorded. So, I can call on a certain amount of "authority", but I can't tell you what the Decca guys actually did. Did they keep a timestamped log, coupled with reliable measurements, and has that been published? You consider that some engineers doing mastering in the mid 1980s had out-date analogue-only skills and had to learn how to do mastering in the new digital medium and this affected sound quality. Maybe, but there's no global evidence of that - and I didn't attend the mastering labs, so can't give a first hand account. No logs have been published confirming this lack of skill, as far as I'm aware. I know that there are claims of egregious mistakes with incorrect masters during the rush to mass digitisation to get CD content in the shops. But some of the 1980's CDs are now considered a gold standard.

My ex-Decca mastering engineer pal entered this job in the digital era, but his boss, with whom I had a long chat about the job, did both vinyl and digital mastering going back to the 60s I believe. My old pal did as little as possible to the tapes he was digitising, only tweaking occasionally when absolutely necessary after an early experience mastering a pop disc, where he e'd it to 'sound good' on his early B&W 801 monitors. He took the disc home and found the sound painfully bright on his home rig, so lesson learned on the classical repertoire he mastered subsequently. He played me some of the mid-price Decca discs he'd done, of 50s and 60s recordings and there were notable sonic differences, his feeling was to master 'flat' so what you heard was what the producer signed off on. His boss told me that on some albums he mastered for CD, he added a couple of dB at 40Hz or so and the one disc I may have heard this is on two CDs I have of 'Mirage' by Camel, the later mastering (also done by an ex-Decca engineer then working out of the same facility in Belsize Road after Decca left it) sounding very slightly leaner/brighter, at least to me.

Final comment/memory. All the old Decca pressings prior to 1970 or so, were often eq'd to high heaven (first-hand knowledge of Solti's Mahler 4 from 1964 which sounds very 'ripe' in the UK purple label pressings). EQ settings are written on the tape box and when this was done for the digital release, it 'sounded' terrible, so was initially at least, mastered 'flat' for the CDs which sounded much better to me. All the old vinylistas out there, revere these old Decca pressings and apparently complained when later cuts done on the better then new Neumann lathes, could be cut 'flatter,' without the old eq settings I was told. My pal told me that acetate cutting is a real skill that he never mastered as he kept running out of 'land' on the one disc he attempted. In the end, he had to use the computer to judge, while envying an EMI pressing of the same music cut carefully 'by hand.'