Can anyone explain the vinyl renaissance?

[Newman]

Late reply, but one reason for the 'vinyl warmth' is the frequency response of so many older pickup cartridges, the down-tilt in response from 50 - several kHz often 3dB or more, followed by a recovery, sometimes to a peak over 10kHz right where you don't want it!

Interesting! I'll add yours (and the post you quote) to my recent list of quotes in this thread discussing vinyl warmth, which we are told is not happening.

cheers

BTW to general readers: this brings us back to an unnecessary battleground in this thread: hostility towards those who interrupt the story-telling narrative with factual analysis. This hostility even results in people who break the narrative being banned from the thread. Those who encourage such bans should be ashamed.

A common excuse for the above hostility is the oft-repeated claim that "nobody here is saying that vinyl is better sounding, so stop criticising vinyl love as if anyone is saying any such thing". I have seen that hostile reproach far too many times, considering how its opening assumption is untrue.

For example: "vinyl warmth". Nobody is going to convince me that the use of that term is intended in a negative sense. 'Warmth' is a universally positive descriptor. If you think you are describing a deficiency, such as a lack of HF energy, then the descriptors need to be something like 'dullness' or 'softness' or 'unbalanced tone'. There is no evidence that a clean extended flat treble response is less preferred in controlled listening conditions.

But if you think you are saying that vinyl is nicer sounding, say so. Don't beat around the bush.

 

[MattHooper]

BTW to general readers: this brings us back to an unnecessary battleground in this thread: hostility towards those who interrupt the story-telling narrative with factual analysis.

Could you point out which “ storytelling” you are interrupting with “ factual analysis?”

It seems obvious DSJR wasn’t claiming that “ all vinyl sounds warm .” Rather he was. simply pointing out one way in which vinyl playback could produce what some would term a “ warm” sonic signature: such a frequency response contributed by the cartridge. A downward tilted response.

'Warmth' is a universally positive descriptor.

Is it?

Do you want “ warmth” imposed in your playback? do you think most ASR members want that and view it as a positive?

“ warmth” can simply be a subjective description of the character of sound. Sure, many may find that a positive, others may not. The use of the term does not necessarily demand, or entail, that everybody is seeking that sound.

If you think you are describing a deficiency, such as a lack of HF energy, then the descriptors need to be something like 'dullness' or 'softness' or 'unbalanced tone'.

Except that such terms may not be capturing the character of the sound in terms of our perception. First “ unbalanced tone” is too vague. Tone can be unbalanced in a variety of ways many of which would not be described as “warm.”

That one presentation may sound “warmer” then another does not necessarily entail “ sounding dull” or “soft.” A bit more downward tilt in one loudspeaker (or slight boost in the warmth region) doesn’t necessitate the perception of dull or soft sound.

There are various ways of frequency manipulation in which you can get warmer sound without being perceived in those negative terms. For one thing when we are mixing dialogue (just like music, mixers, mixing vocals), we may decide a male voice would benefit from some more “warmth” so we will boost the appropriate “warmth” region. (perhaps 150 Hz to 300 Hz, depending on the voice). This does not necessitate losing clarity or detail in the voice. Nor even necessitates sounding “unbalanced.” The same goes generally for adding “warmth” in a mix, or for that matter in a loudspeaker.

It’s possible a vinyl pressing or a cartridge or whatever my ad some sense of “warmth” somewhere that someone may find pleasing.

But if you think you are saying that vinyl is nicer sounding, say so. Don't beat around the bush.

Who is beating around the bush?
I’m not saying vinyl is “nicer sounding” in some universal sense. (And I don’t remember anybody in quite a few pages in this thread arguing that either).

So the question remains: who exactly are you speaking to? If you think someone specific is making the claims you were critiquing, why not address their post specifically so they can clarify whether your critique is accurate or not?

As for me: Do I think some vinyl is “nicer sounding” in the sense of being
preferable to me in some cases? Sure.
This is usually in the context that I can hear “nicer things about the digital” version as well as certain things I prefer about the vinyl version. And depending on the comparison, I may find that all things considered I prefer the vinyl version. (Other times the digital version.)

Am I presenting this under the pretext that I am scientifically vetting all such home comparisons? Of course not. But it’s not demanded here that every single anecdote and opinion must be accompanied with scientific rigour. If we are speaking anecdotally, we are speaking anecdotally, and it is expected anyone can take it as such. If you want to put zero credence in any such personal reports that is of course your prerogative. If somebody else is willing to accept such personal reports, with the obvious caveats, that’s their prerogative. That’s the wonderful thing about being free to think as you wish


So I’m not sure what the problem is that you are actually seeing in my position - or whomever we should take you to be addressing (?)

I truly hope you don’t greet the simple questioning of some of your premises and claims, while providing an alternative viewpoint, as “hostile.” This is the normal stuff of discussing such issues on a forum, analyzing arguments, and exchanging opinions.

Cheers.

 

[Newman]

 

[dougi]

It’s hard to mistake the covers of production music once you are used to seeing them.

Some classic Bruton Music covers: a combination of utilitarian, almost brutalist, fanciful:

Nice @MattHooper. I have a few I picked up at various places, including ex-broadcasting, but only a few. They are getting expensive to buy on the second hand market too for ones that are groovy or funky. (for example here in Oz) Perhaps this has inspired some of the recent KPM and other re-issues. Alan Tew's drama suite part I and II were reissued this year that I purchased.

 

[MattHooper]

Nice @MattHooper. I have a few I picked up at various places, including ex-broadcasting, but only a few. They are getting expensive to buy on the second hand market too for ones that are groovy or funky. (for example here in Oz) Perhaps this has inspired some of the recent KPM and other re-issues. Alan Tew's drama suite part I and II were reissued this year that I purchased.

Oh man, they finally released the drama suite? Must be be with records? I’ll have to pick that up. Their re-issues are absolutely stellar. And boy is that set expensive for the originals!

Thanks for the tip.

 

[Galliardist]

Oh man, they finally released the drama suite? Must be be with records? I’ll have to pick that up. Their re-issues are absolutely stellar. And boy is that set expensive for the originals!

Thanks for the tip.

I had a fiddle around in Apple Music today, and found that the Bruton Music releases there don't tally to the vinyl albums in any way. Presumably the extra space on CDs gives a chance to reorganise tracks by perceived type, but annoying if you want to hear things by artist/composer as on the LPs.

So there you are - a reason to have vinyl!

I may have to make playlists for the few I'd want to hear. Or maybe the CDs are an improvement?

Edit - there are some originals on Tidal, obviously from master tapes and not the LPs. And at least one on Qobuz... but they are rather hard to find.

 

[DSJR]

Here, too! Linn...
I have a stock DUAL1229 with a SHUE V15 IV and a stock Technics SL-M3 linier tracking T4P with a SHURE ULTRA 300.
Not looking for anything more.

I loved my 1229, lent to a pal's son and now lost forever., I replaced it with the 701 in 1989 or thereabouts which is now the main vinyl spinner..

 

[DSJR]

hmm, if that's indeed so...isn't that just a good ol'...'smiley face' eq?

I think it's a little bit more than that, as commercial vinyl cuts often have de-essing incorporated to stop missssstracking in lesser pickups (years ago it was to make granny's old autochange groove-grinder usable - remember that HiFi record players were a niche market back in the day when it mattered). The plastic vinyl medium also 'gentles-up' the higher frequencies too and this was brought home big time to me when I compared the 30IPS analogue master to a freshly cut acetate (done in front of me) of a favourite Blue Nile song, to the 12" single made earlier from the same tape and then the LP track (Tinseltown In The Rain, plus the B side 'Regret'), which nearly put me off vinyl for life until I found pickups able to rescue most of the hf (Decca and some modern MC types, as well as better Ortofon 2m models once Shure ceased production of the V15 VMR and Ultra models).

I personally feel that 'digital' and CD in particular, helped lift vinyl's game hugely, as playback systems gradually became less 'shrieky' in balance and the pickups themselves started a long road to greater neutrality, hence at the lower end, the refinement of AT's '95' series (the 95ML and 95SH for example), the consolidation here of the 2M range, the predecessor OM models sounding a bit 'relentless' forty years back compared to HFC recommended models with a solid 5+dB drop in hf from 1kHz to 20khz and sometimes with a two or three dB low bass lift too...

This all started again for me, trying to find a drop-out free version of 'Old Wild Men' by 10CC, reverting to two early 'Mely's' vinyl cuts (both sound different to each other up top), which lack the drop-out in this song at 1:48 but neither sounding as 'vivid' all through as the digital releases.. Hopefully my new-old stylus might help here.

One good album which may help close the gap a bit, while maybe showing the differences I'm on about a little, is 'Colour of Spring' by Talk Talk*. The song 'Happiness Is Easy' has been playing in my head for a few days now (the song lyrics describing a perhaps sad reflection on the way some of us are, even forty or so years on from the song's composition in light of current events) and the drum-kit 'sound' at the introduction may well be telling if comparing the two formats.

DAMN I've easily found the CD to play this lunchtime, but the vinyl (original '86 pressing' appears to have gone the way of many LPs some years ago. Twenty odd years back as we were moving, I got rid of so many records I'd replaced on CD, never thinking I'd like to play these vinyls again. Hey Ho.

 

[drmevo]

A common excuse for the above hostility is the oft-repeated claim that "nobody here is saying that vinyl is better sounding, so stop criticising vinyl love as if anyone is saying any such thing". I have seen that hostile reproach far too many times, considering how its opening assumption is untrue.

I have said that, or something along those lines (though I didn’t tell anyone to stop criticizing). Can you explain to me what is hostile about that?

For example: "vinyl warmth". Nobody is going to convince me that the use of that term is intended in a negative sense. 'Warmth' is a universally positive descriptor. If you think you are describing a deficiency, such as a lack of HF energy, then the descriptors need to be something like 'dullness' or 'softness' or 'unbalanced tone'. There is no evidence that a clean extended flat treble response is less preferred in controlled listening conditions.

I disagree with this. When I shop for a cartridge, I don’t want a “warm” cartridge that will color all of my music in the same way. I want something neutral. “Warm” may not be the best or most accurate descriptor, but it’s certainly not viewed as a positive by everyone who listens to vinyl, or any other type of media. It’s a coloration. I think you might be generalizing here to say that it’s universally intended as a positive.

But if you think you are saying that vinyl is nicer sounding, say so. Don't beat around the bush.

Actually, I looked at your list, and in context, the majority of quotes you pulled are people commenting on others who listen to vinyl and guessing/assuming that “warmth” is some component of their reasoning for listening to it. There are very few individuals, if any, here, saying “I listen to vinyl because it has a warm sound when compared to digital.” In fact, I’m pretty sure no one here is saying that.

 

[MattHooper]

Actually, I looked at your list, and in context, the majority of quotes you pulled are people commenting on others who listen to vinyl and guessing/assuming that “warmth” is some component of their reasoning for listening to it. There are very few individuals, if any, here, saying “I listen to vinyl because it has a warm sound when compared to digital.” In fact, I’m pretty sure no one here is saying that.

Indeed.

As far as I can tell, Newman seems concerned with the general claim that “ vinyl sounds warmer than digital.”
(I’d be happy to be corrected on this by Newman if that’s wrong)

Newman has apparently searched wherever the term vinyl and warmth have appeared together, and collected such instances as if tallying up a list of indiscretions. But seems to have done so with little discrimination.

Take the quote he selected out of my post:

“vinyl having some detectable record warble BUT having what seems to be a more believable balance of bow texture, vividness, ease, warmth”

Now look at the context from which that quote came from

In that very post, to make absolutely clear the context in which I was speaking, I had written:

“I'm not for a second saying vinyl sounds real across the board, even in my own set up. That would be silly. And since vinyl playback can be finicky - it can sound all over the map depending on the playback device or how someone has set up his cartridge etc - there's no universal "vinyl sound" in that sense. I'm just saying that in my particular set up (and I could extend that to a friend's as well), there are some aspects that I both like and that can remind me more of the real thing.”

That, and the paragraphs from which my quote was selected, make it clear that I was speaking to a particular example when a vinyl record had those qualities over a digital counterpart, not making some overall claim about “ vinyl always sounding warmer.”

In referencing his list of quotes about vinyl, Newman speaks about the “hostility towards those who interrupt the story-telling narrative with factual analysis.”

So it seems entirely fair to ask Newman to explain: What is actually wrong with what I wrote? What “ factual analysis” is being brought to my claim and what is being corrected?

What story-telling myth, misinformation or false claim was I perpetuating?

And why is pointing out any of the above, and asking for such clarifications deemed “hostile?”

I sincerely would like to understand the underlying point Newman is making. (and how my quotes figure into that)

 

[MattHooper]

I had a fiddle around in Apple Music today, and found that the Bruton Music releases there don't tally to the vinyl albums in any way. Presumably the extra space on CDs gives a chance to reorganise tracks by perceived type, but annoying if you want to hear things by artist/composer as on the LPs.

So there you are - a reason to have vinyl!

I may have to make playlists for the few I'd want to hear. Or maybe the CDs are an improvement?

Edit - there are some originals on Tidal, obviously from master tapes and not the LPs. And at least one on Qobuz... but they are rather hard to find.

I haven’t totally kept up with the digital releases of library music. I do know that when some of the albums and collections began to appear, including some Bruton music, the digital versions were fairly terrible. I don’t know where they got the original source, but they didn’t hold a candle to the vinyl versions (the digital versions seem to have been sourced in a way that let them to be much more thin and crude sounding, not showing the usual advantages of digital).
Some of the Bruton LP in my collection are among the richest sounding recordings I have.

However, in the case of KPM, while I think I remember some duds in the original digital versions, eventually good care was taken with the transfers to digital, and the digital versions of the KPM library now I think it’s superb from what I have sampled.
It happens that I prefer the vinyl versions in many instances, but I can certainly see why most here would prefer the digital versions.

 

[DSJR]

Another thing - I'm not sure how many proper tech tests are being done on pickup cartridges these days. All the ones (even now from the German Lowbeats site, which used to properly measure their cartridges) are the reviewer's opinion on the sound he hears and whether he likes it or not. Rega have finally (YEA!!!) replaced their awful old 'home made' MM pickups with much more modern and claimed 'better' home made models with three new ones. The ND5 had a great 'highly recommended' review in HiFi Choice, purely by the so-called 'reviewer' sticking it into an upper model Planar 10 deck and playing a few tracks on it -

My beef is - What's the response at beginning and end of side? What's the distortion like? (ADC cantilevers of old had fore-aft movement with the groove-drag of music, although the improved machined hinge of later models helped a lot in terms of distortion I gather) What's the tracing/tracking ability like? Absolutely NO measurements at all, but we do have proper tests on the AT VM540 and 740 from Lowbeats for example.

 

[MaxwellsEq]

Another thing - I'm not sure how many proper tech tests are being done on pickup cartridges these days. All the ones (even now from the German Lowbeats site, which used to properly measure their cartridges) are the reviewer's opinion on the sound he hears and whether he likes it or not. Rega have finally (YEA!!!) replaced their awful old 'home made' MM pickups with much more modern and claimed 'better' home made models with three new ones. The ND5 had a great 'highly recommended' review in HiFi Choice, purely by the so-called 'reviewer' sticking it into an upper model Planar 10 deck and playing a few tracks on it -

My beef is - What's the response at beginning and end of side? What's the distortion like? (ADC cantilevers of old had fore-aft movement with the groove-drag of music, although the improved machined hinge of later models helped a lot in terms of distortion I gather) What's the tracing/tracking ability like? Absolutely NO measurements at all, but we do have proper tests on the AT VM540 and 740 from Lowbeats for example.

Some of this is covered in the fantastic work done by the developers and contributors of this thread

Introducing the Phono Cartridge Measurement Library

Skip to the index. After years of development we are finally launching our phono cartridge measurement library. These measurements were created using the brilliant cartridge response python script written by @scott wurcer and @JP. Information about its origins can be found in the following...

audiosciencereview.com

 

[DSJR]

Some of this is covered in the fantastic work done by the developers and contributors of this thread

Introducing the Phono Cartridge Measurement Library

Skip to the index. After years of development we are finally launching our phono cartridge measurement library. These measurements were created using the brilliant cartridge response python script written by @scott wurcer and @JP. Information about its origins can be found in the following...

audiosciencereview.com

Yes indeed, but not sure the mainstream 'reviewers' recently climbed back on the vinyl bandwagon, have the experience or means to properly back up their opinions of the 'sound quality' after playing a few songs, with definitive objective data.

 

[Count Dacula]

....and

I think this sounds pretty good. Maybe it makes a decent touchstone compared to vinyl copies the members may have floating around. lmk.

I can do without the interlude, but it gives a chance to showcase the band playing and still keep the theatrical video intact.

iirc, this track always sounded pretty dull and congested... but not here.

 

[DSJR]

....and

I think this sounds pretty good. Maybe it makes a decent touchstone compared to vinyl copies the members may have floating around. lmk.

I can do without the interlude, but it gives a chance to showcase the band playing and still keep the theatrical video intact.

iirc, this track always sounded pretty dull and congested... but not here.

Always sounded great to me... I'll get me coat

 

[MattHooper]

....and

I think this sounds pretty good. Maybe it makes a decent touchstone compared to vinyl copies the members may have floating around. lmk.

I can do without the interlude, but it gives a chance to showcase the band playing and still keep the theatrical video intact.

iirc, this track always sounded pretty dull and congested... but not here.

My copy of the German pressing of YES - 90125 sounds fantastic. But so does the digital version.

BTW, there’s a hilariously low budget alternative video for owner of a lonely heart.
To my mind, it’s the ultimate example from the 80s of an older band awkwardly trying to adapt to the new wave milieux. It’s a bunch of slightly too-old musicians, outside their comfort zone. Jon Anderson not knowing at all what to do in terms of movement is particularly funny. And my God, the clothes!

 

[Count Dacula]

It was indeed an awkward time. I saw them in-the-round circa 1979. Our own interests and styles evolve over time, but when I go back to Yes occasionally, I understand how it was the best dish on the table.

 

[Count Dacula]

I don't want to beat a dead horse, but of all the retro tunes I listen to, this Duran song jumps out as a killer track. I placed the Yes vid here for reference because people know it better, but...

I saw them play View To A Kill at Live Aid ...pure genius

 

[MattHooper]

I don't want to beat a dead horse, but of all the retro tunes I listen to, this Duran song jumps out as a killer track. I placed the Yes vid here for reference because people know it better, but...

I saw them play View To A Kill at Live Aid ...pure genius

The Rio vinyl album sounds amazing on my system. Really powerful.!