Can anyone explain the vinyl renaissance?

[EJ3]

Nice feature. How is the availability of P-mount cartridges and needles these days? I used to sell Technics stuff and we ordered in the P-mounts by the hundreds at a time. The old timers liked them because their vision and eye hand coordination was not what it used to be and they wanted simple stuff.

I like them because they are simple (put it in place, screw it down, play music). When I got the turntable I knew what T4P was but did not know anyone that had one. I will say that most people I knew either did not (have one [and did not want to]), none were curious enough to want to spend some bucks to check it out. Or they where like me: well, if I get a turntable that has it, I'll deal with it then.
So, it happened that the SL-M3 was the TT I wanted, the price was right (with a 2 year warranty), found at an Estate Sale in Germany). It is a dual voltage unit. But, I have had it's 43 LB.s with me in numerous places & I have, over many years only had to replace a belt to do with the linier tracking mechanism.
T4P carts: a little expensive these days, of course, once you have one, then all you need is the stylus. I have several Technics and SHURE. I am currently running a NOS SHURE ULTRA 300 that is doing quite well.
I just recently bought a Grado Gold Gold II or something like that (Grado's previous top of the line T4P). Their offerings have gone down drastically in the past couple of years. COVID was as bad if not worse for business. So not many doing T4P anymore.
If you need (or expect to) any T4P stuff, now would be the time to get it.
I suspect that in the not too near future, it will be made out of "unobtanium"!

 

[EJ3]

The only thing that stands out to me in your post as not lining up with my experience is that you say you’ve never heard IGD with a $40 cartridge. My experience was that IGD was very much a thing on a handful of records I own until I upgraded to a microline stylus. Then it was pretty much eliminated. But, every elliptical or conical I tried before that was incapable of playing back the inner grooves cleanly on that handful of records.

Some were better than others, but no matter how much I played with alignment or different set up factors, it seemed to take an advanced stylus profile to rid my playback experience of any noticeable IGD.

Or are you saying you bought a used cartridge that was $40 but it’s an advanced stylus profile? In that case, disregard.

The threat of IGD from time to time was a big push for me to get the Technics SL-M3 Linier Tracking Turntable!

But, truthfully, I can't say that I ever heard it on my DUAL 1229.

IGD was just a non-existent extra "wishful thinking 'extra benefit" that it would keep an issue that I had never unequivocally heard, from happening.

Apparently (to me at least) a mythical occurrence.

 

[Count Dacula]

Evolution vs. Revolution

 

[IPunchCholla]

The only thing that stands out to me in your post as not lining up with my experience is that you say you’ve never heard IGD with a $40 cartridge. My experience was that IGD was very much a thing on a handful of records I own until I upgraded to a microline stylus. Then it was pretty much eliminated. But, every elliptical or conical I tried before that was incapable of playing back the inner grooves cleanly on that handful of records.

Some were better than others, but no matter how much I played with alignment or different set up factors, it seemed to take an advanced stylus profile to rid my playback experience of any noticeable IGD.

Or are you saying you bought a used cartridge that was $40 but it’s an advanced stylus profile? In that case, disregard.

It’s a conical stylus. My albums are new or mint for the most part. Almost all the recent ones seem to stop 2+ inches from inner lock groove and tend to be 2lp sets for a regular length album. It’s also mostly electronic and heavily distorted music, I haven’t noticed it on acoustic pieces either. It could also be I just don’t know what to listen for, so I just don’t hear it. I don’t know.

 

[levimax]

I find I can’t really listen to Mono on a stereo playback system. By that I mean, it seems I prefer some level of stereo effect in order for it to feel worth it sitting in the sweet spot.
I’m fine listening to Mono casually, in the background, or from another room or while doing something else. But I like stereo for when I’m going to sit down in front of my system. I’ve purchased a number of records recorded in the 60s, and a few times when I’ve received the record and played it I’m like “ damn it’s mono! I should’ve checked!” So that’s one of the things I checked for when buying older albums to make sure it’s stereo. (and mono tends to produce more squeezed diminutive Sonic image sizes from the sweet spot)

I certainly get why someone can have preferences for various mono recordings. Just doesn’t seem to work for me.

I am not really a mono enthusiast but for for some types of music like older girl and guitar or girl and small ensemble especially on old LP's, I find it can work quite well. Old mono LP's tend to be much quieter than old stereo LP's (especially if you sum to mono which cancels out the out of phase noise) and as mentioned early stereo mixes can be suboptimal with unnatural hard panning and sometime weird reverb effects and strange imaging and other artifacts that I find distracting. With mono there is just a singer right in front of me with the instrument(s) playing behind and close to the singer all solidly centered and consistent. I will almost always prefer a good stereo mix to mono but in some cases there is no good stereo mix and the momo can either the only choice or a preferred choice. As always with preferences YMMV.

 

[sq225917]

The vinyl version and then the digital version?
Keith

I've a handful of albums where I can't tell the vinyl and digital apart. They are few and far between. Waterboys, this is the sea. Johnny Cash American IV, a couple of classical albums. I guess these were mixed for vinyl and the vinyl masters were used for the cd.

I have a couple of albums where the vinyl is better presented than the cd, just undeniably, clearer less compressed mixes, all the Amy Winehouse albums and the first two Adele albums.

Mostly though there's clear water In cd's favour. As a format it's just 'capable' of higher fidelity.

 

[levimax]

Nice feature. How is the availability of P-mount cartridges and needles these days? I used to sell Technics stuff and we ordered in the P-mounts by the hundreds at a time. The old timers liked them because their vision and eye hand coordination was not what it used to be and they wanted simple stuff.

I have and have had several p-mount TT's both regular and linear trackers and I always found p-mount easy and reliable but not held in high esteem with the TT elites. Looking at the Jico website and LP gear site it looks like there are both carts and especially replacement stylus available for many p-mount carts (including fancy SAS replacements from JICO). Since a generator will more or less last forever and there is large selection of new and used p-mount carts available I would not worry too much about p-mounts becoming unusable.

 

[MattHooper]

and as mentioned early stereo mixes can be suboptimal with unnatural hard panning and sometime weird reverb effects and strange imaging and other artifacts that I find distracting.

Whereas for me, I quite happy with the type of things you described. I’ve mentioned before, but I’m into a genre called library music (not to mention the old 60s exotica recordings - what became known as “bachelor pad music” in the 90s), which is extremely quirky and recorded from the 60s through to the 80s. And it includes a lot of very quirky mixing to say the least. Like what you just described.
I find even the craziest mixes to be entertaining, and charming in their own way.

 

[levimax]

Whereas for me, I quite happy with the type of things you described. I’ve mentioned before, but I’m into a genre called library music (not to mention the old 60s exotica recordings - what became known as “bachelor pad music” in the 90s), which is extremely quirky and recorded from the 60s through to the 80s. And it includes a lot of very quirky mixing to say the least. Like what you just described.
I find even the craziest mixes to be entertaining, and charming in their own way.

Stereo effects can be interesting when they are intended but when Ella Fritzgerald is singing in front of me with a few instruments behinde her accomping her I don't think weird panning or unnatural imaging adds anything and to me is distracting. YMMV. More than one way to enjoy this great hobby

 

[EJ3]

It’s a conical stylus. My albums are new or mint for the most part. Almost all the recent ones seem to stop 2+ inches from inner lock groove and tend to be 2lp sets for a regular length album. It’s also mostly electronic and heavily distorted music, I haven’t noticed it on acoustic pieces either. It could also be I just don’t know what to listen for, so I just don’t hear it. I don’t know.

I cannot think of any LP that came out and grabbed me saying "Hear that, it's IGD".
Even when listening on my DUAL 1229 with the factory tone arm & a SHURE V15 IV,
So I have to say that (to me) so far in my journey: IGD is mythical.
But, as many have stated that they hear it,
I bought a Technics SL-M3 Linier Tracking and use a NOS SHURE ULTRA 300,
as a cure for it, just in case.

 

[Galliardist]

Stereo effects can be interesting when they are intended but when Ella Fritzgerald is singing in front of me with a few instruments behinde her accomping her I don't think weird panning or unnatural imaging adds anything and to me is distracting. YMMV. More than one way to enjoy this great hobby

Careful, though... once you let mono through the door, you might have to admit that the best of those smart speakers we love to look down on, with their pristine digital circuitry, might actually be a category of "high fidelity". And then, where do we end up?

 

[Mean & Green]

It’s a conical stylus. My albums are new or mint for the most part. Almost all the recent ones seem to stop 2+ inches from inner lock groove and tend to be 2lp sets for a regular length album. It’s also mostly electronic and heavily distorted music, I haven’t noticed it on acoustic pieces either. It could also be I just don’t know what to listen for, so I just don’t hear it. I don’t know.

That explains a lot as to why you’ve not encountered IGD.

 

[Mean & Green]

The mentions of IGD have got me wondering how much of it is affected by the playback equipment and how much of it just goes unnoticed by the individual.

I have two Pro-Ject TTs with different tonearms and different Ortofon carts/styli. One is the bottom of the ladder and the other one is more mid level.

The thing that has surprised me the most about perceived differences with these two is how different they are in terms of accentuating surface noise and IGD. Actual tonal balance isn’t really much different, but the entry level deck is a real pain for noise and distortion to the point I thought used records that were worn out - in fact arent when I play them on the better deck. I can compare the better deck to digital sources and really struggle to pin point any difference.

I still do have some records that exhibit IGD on the better machine, but it’s much less obvious and few and far between, they tend to be old second hand original pressings. Modern vinyl doesn’t seem to have such issues at all IME. Once you notice IGD there is no ignoring it.

 

[drmevo]

The threat of IGD from time to time was a big push for me to get the Technics SL-M3 Linier Tracking Turntable!

Nice! For me, I just swore off elliptical styli. They need to be replaced much more frequently than advanced profiles anyways, so they aren’t even a cost savings over the long haul.

It’s a conical stylus. My albums are new or mint for the most part. Almost all the recent ones seem to stop 2+ inches from inner lock groove and tend to be 2lp sets for a regular length album. It’s also mostly electronic and heavily distorted music, I haven’t noticed it on acoustic pieces either. It could also be I just don’t know what to listen for, so I just don’t hear it. I don’t know.

That makes sense. For me, it’s certainly most noticeable in the form of vocal sibilance, and even then, only on certain records. Records with a very loud/busy inner track, like maybe high-pitched guitar solo over a full ensemble, can also be affected, and in that case, it just sounds, well, distorted. I’m positive you would hear it.

 

[Leporello]

That explains a lot as to why you’ve not encountered IGD.

What about this? At least there is a healthy amount of distortion of some kind.

 

[Snoopy]

Only time I ever had issues with IGD on my Technics TT with AT ML stylus was on new LPs where they really went pretty much next to the label with the grooves.

Rolling Stones Hackney Diamonds for example. (Returned that one and got the Blu-ray for the atmos files ).


It’s only really the new LPs that suffer from crackle & Pop and everything else that makes some people here hate on Vinyl so much.

But my flimsy thin 60/70s Japanese LPs from Victor, JVC, Toshiba etc.. pretty much everything I want from LPs.

I use a waxwing phono Stage to remove surface noise, rumble, low/high pass filter and some other DSP. Also digital connections instead of RCA.

I listen mostly with Headphones and on new LPs I hear really so much crap . That’s just not there on those VG+ and NM jap. LPs.

Also they are super cheap.. I pick up enough for 4-15€ per LP.

 

[MattHooper]

I cannot think of any LP that came out and grabbed me saying "Here that, it's IGD".
Even when listening on my DUAL 1229 with the factory tone arm & a SHURE V15 IV,
So I have to say that (to me) so far in my journey IGD is mythical.
But, as many have stated that they hear it,
I bought a Technics SL-M3 Linier Tracking and use a NOS SHURE ULTRA 300,
as a cure for it, just in case.

Same here. If it’s there, it’s not jumping out at me. I turntable has a 12 inch arm, and I think longer arms are supposed to help somewhat with this? (though not eliminate it?)

 

[deweydm]

The interest in technologically obsolete physical formats continues to grow. From the RIAA 2024 mid year report: “Vinyl grew 17% to $740 million….”

 

[Robin L]

But my flimsy thin 60/70s Japanese LPs from Victor, JVC, Toshiba etc.. pretty much everything I want from LPs.
Also they are super cheap.. I pick up enough for 4-15€ per LP.

When I was buying Japanese imports in the 1970s, they were neither supercheap nor flimsy. I would guess they had less vinyl than modern pressings. But they had about the same amount of vinyl as domestic pressings of the 1970s, maybe a little more. They averaged about $4 each more than domestic (USA) pressings. They also had (uniformly) a lot more treble than either domestic or European imports. The exception was Verve's reissues of classic Jazz, those seemed to have the same EQ as the American issues. If you like LPs and like classic Jazz, it's worth your effort to hunt those titles down. Japanese pressings consistently had the best surfaces.

While the dates listed here are in the early 1980s, I bought my copies of the Verve Jazz series 1977/1978.

https://www.discogs.com/label/415421-The-Original-Verve-Jazz-Classics?page=1

 

[egellings]

Stereo effects can be interesting when they are intended but when Ella Fritzgerald is singing in front of me with a few instruments behinde her accomping her I don't think weird panning or unnatural imaging adds anything and to me is distracting. YMMV. More than one way to enjoy this great hobby

Depends on the type of music whether playing at the mixing console works or not. Don't mess with Ella. For synth pop, go nutz at the console if you want to.