Can anyone explain the vinyl renaissance?

[boswell]

Vinyl resurgence? This guy hasn't heard yet. From an Australian newspaper today. (article as .pdf attached)

 

[Count Dacula]

I’m more annoyed by the typical audiophile golden eared vinyl defenders who trot out ridiculous arguments for the superiority of vinyl. I do a lot of pushing back on that when I see it in the subjective forums.

And I agree that, in a perfect world, nobody would be coming to vinyl with inaccurate beliefs about its capabilities.

However, I think being informed is always a good thing if one is open to it. So I attempted to do that in a way that didn’t dump on or undermine his excitement for his new hobby.

It's kind of ironic where, nowadays if someone young is into audio they should pursue a digital source and front end, where someone older might be well "advised" to stick it out with their TT and Hobgoblin record collection. No need to cross over, but how many records are these guys buying?

Rare is the true listener who falls between the cracks with split A & D formats in use, most people are pretty committed one way or another. Those rare guys with A and D collections because of their age & demographics are conceptually closer to the young people buying goofball turntables and "building a vinyl collection"... they're not really "listeners" because if they were, they would have followed better advice, not hype.

The more I follow this thread the more I realize the Vinyl Renaissance really was and is driven by vinyl DJs and 12 inch. Trust me, in the 1990's the lathe at Sigma Sound was pretty dusty.

420 pages to get the answer sounds about right.

 

[Count Dacula]

Yes it is, and he will perpetuate that lie to how many others that don't have a better source of information they respect.
"hey guys & girls, check out how KOOL this is".
They may even read that Stereophile review I just linked, to the unknowing, who could seem the more knowledgeable?
The kids may be all right, but the progress of the SOTA in music playback has been badly hurt by misplaced enthusiasm
and efforts.
Exactly
I'm sure you can find a mix in one of these you'll find amazing.

Yes, with so many things, people have to learn to trust their OWN judgment and ability to ascertain things. It's far too late tonight to explain all of the "whys".
It's a Stoic thing to develop this kind of self-confidence, although without overconfidence, conflicting with Buddhism.

 

[Newman]

The more I follow this thread the more I realize the Vinyl Renaissance really was and is driven by vinyl DJs and 12 inch. Trust me, in the 1990's the lathe at Sigma Sound was pretty dusty.

Too right.

420 pages to get the answer sounds about right.

Or maybe just 93 pages, link

cheers

 

[Blumlein 88]

Seems like anyone not interested in the vinyl after this many pages in would follow the adage, "if you don't have anything good to say, then don't say anything at all."

 

[Doodski]

Seems like anyone not interested in the vinyl would follow the adage, "if you don't have anything good to say, then don't say anything at all."

That is the position I have taken for the recent days. This thread is hot and ripe.

 

[Newman]

Seems like anyone not interested in the vinyl after this many pages in would follow the adage, "if you don't have anything good to say, then don't say anything at all."

I'm very interested in vinyl. I have over 50 years of experience with it. So.....how much does that mean I should say about it?

Oh wait: anything good to say. You mean a Vinyl Love thread. Funny, this thread never was that, nor by intention.

Although there have been several attempts to commandeer it for such purposes, in order to prohibit any semblance of balance to the commentary. So much so, that mods had to step in and make perfectly clear that it is not a Vinyl Love thread. Pros and cons can be freely and repeatedly stated.

The real issue with this thread's conviviality is not that unflattering things get said about vinyl, nor that they get repeated. The real issue is that some people can't handle the truth about vinyl, so they don't want to hear it, so they insist that they already know it so it shouldn't be said, so they start shooting the messenger who they don't agree with and making it personal.

So let me suggest an improved version of your quote: "if you don't have anything good to say about people, then don't say nuthin' at all." In fact that's what I think Thumper was actually saying.

cheers

 

[AdamG]

It is 3 am and here we are dealing with multiple personalities who all think they own the high ground in this thread. This thread is not some antithetical secret attack on the “virtues and purity” of what ASR stands for. Our mission is to teach and reveal truths about the Audio Reproduction Science. Is there a small place for “The Nostalgic” ? I want to think that both can exist at the same time. We all have different tastes in music. We all have different desires when it comes to how we choose to consume music. It doesn’t always have to be a certain way or it’s wrong because you are not getting the purity or best of the SOTA perfection. When some music. Actually a great deal of it, was created and recorded. The current SOTA was vinyl and tape. Was the vinyl “Master” a representation of what the Artist(s) intended? Maybe it was. Do some want to recreate that nostalgic moment/feeling in their own way and homes? Is doing that a disparaging way to thumb your nose at Science and Audio Engineering and Technology that exists today? I could use dozens of modern day examples of why many people prefer older technology in Cars/Boats/Aircraft/Homes/Art. As Teachers we need to realize that nothing in this world is pure “Black and White”.

This Thread continues to be a major point of contention, argument and overheated interactions that are creating an environment that is becoming more and more hostile and toxic. This is not a good example of how to treat each other with mutual respect and dignity. This is a constant source of strife, hate and resentment. I am closing this thread tonight and all 3 Moderators will be reviewing what has been said here in the next few hours/days to make a group decision on what we need to do next here. It’s abundantly clear that this current state of affairs can not be permitted to continue. Some of you have pushed us into a corner and are forcing the Moderators to intervene. Take the night to step back and ask yourself. Am I proud of my posts? Have I honestly engaged in dialog that is fair and non hostile towards others. Have I allowed my emotions to get in the way and have I treated everyone else in a respectful and dignified manner?

We have been given no other choice but to step in and make decisions. We try our damned best to stay out of the way and not interfere with the free flow of thoughts and ideas. That approach seems to work well for the other 99% of the Treads and Conversations here. But apparently this particular thread makes this impossible. So decide we will. There will be outcomes now that are not going to be pleasant for some and you are putting us in a very uncomfortable and unpleasant position. Whatever we ultimately decide. Remember this. We tried like hell to stay out of this and let you all figure this out yourselves.

It’s late and not all the Staff are up and ready to deal with this. So, please excuse us for the closure and give us the time to figure this out. Thank you to the Peacemakers who tried to use their voices to lower the temperature and cause participants a moment to reflect and slow their roll. We appreciate your efforts. You know who you are and We know who you are. For now goodnight.

On Edit: We have made our decision and this thread is reopened for your enjoyment. Happy Saturday Crew.

 

[Robin L]

Vinyl resurgence? This guy hasn't heard yet. From an Australian newspaper today. (article as .pdf attached)
View attachment 388264

"Buckingham Nicks", now there's a rare slab of vinyl. Managed to find a copy sometime in the 90's. There was a little bite in the lead-in groove of my copy, but not enough to render the record unplayable as long as one was careful. Nice record, something the pair cooked up before everything became so acrimonious. Looks like someone finally turned it into a CD.

 

[Bob from Florida]

It is 3 am and here we are dealing with multiple personalities who all think they own the high ground in this thread. This thread is not some antithetical secret attack on the “virtues and purity” of what ASR stands for. Our mission is to teach and reveal truths about the Audio Reproduction Science. Is there a small place for “The Nostalgic” ? I want to think that both can exist at the same time. We all have different tastes in music. We all have different desires when it comes to how we choose to consume music. It doesn’t always have to be a certain way or it’s wrong because you are not getting the purity or best of the SOTA perfection. When some music. Actually a great deal of it, was created and recorded. The current SOTA was vinyl and tape. Was the vinyl “Master” a representation of what the Artist(s) intended? Maybe it was. Do some want to recreate that nostalgic moment/feeling in their own way and homes? Is doing that a disparaging way to thumb your nose at Science and Audio Engineering and Technology that exists today? I could use dozens of modern day examples of why many people prefer older technology in Cars/Boats/Aircraft/Homes/Art. As Teachers we need to realize that nothing in this world is pure “Black and White”.

This Thread continues to be a major point of contention, argument and overheated interactions that are creating an environment that is becoming more and more hostile and toxic. This is not a good example of how to treat each other with mutual respect and dignity. This is a constant source of strife, hate and resentment. I am closing this thread tonight and all 3 Moderators will be reviewing what has been said here in the next few hours/days to make a group decision on what we need to do next here. It’s abundantly clear that this current state of affairs can not be permitted to continue. Some of you have pushed us into a corner and are forcing the Moderators to intervene. Take the night to step back and ask yourself. Am I proud of my posts? Have I honestly engaged in dialog that is fair and non hostile towards others. Have I allowed my emotions to get in the way and have I treated everyone else in a respectful and dignified manner?

We have been given no other choice but to step in and make decisions. We try our damned best to stay out of the way and not interfere with the free flow of thoughts and ideas. That approach seems to work well for the other 99% of the Treads and Conversations here. But apparently this particular thread makes this impossible. So decide we will. There will be outcomes now that are not going to be pleasant for some and you are putting us in a very uncomfortable and unpleasant position. Whatever we ultimately decide. Remember this. We tried like hell to stay out of this and let you all figure this out yourselves.

It’s late and not all the Staff are up and ready to deal with this. So, please excuse us for the closure and give us the time to figure this out. Thank you to the Peacemakers who tried to use their voices to lower the temperature and cause participants a moment to reflect and slow their roll. We appreciate your efforts. You know who you are and We know who you are. For now goodnight.

On Edit: We have made our decision and this thread is reopened for your enjoyment. Happy Saturday Crew.

 

[Newman]

Thanks @Galliardist for attempting to trim the excesses from some of the arguments being put forth. You are a voice of reason.

With speakers, at least, Toole's results allow for a small part of the population to respond in that way. As such, it's part of the science.

It's part of the science that a small part of the population, without hearing damage, prefers non-flat axial response above the bass frequencies, in controlled listening conditions.

That is not the same as the much larger part of the population who think they are in the small part mentioned above, based on their casual sighted listening tests.

What's more, we don't have a consistent rigorous investigation into either that minority preference, nor into sighted response. So from a science point of view, we have to be careful about this.

Well, as for investigation into that minority preference, I know it's a proxy, but we do have Sean Olive saying that in many years of taking people through his controlled listening test, not once has anyone without significant hearing damage preferred any speaker other than the one he predicts they would prefer. And IIRC he has had over a thousand people through that test. So, maybe the 'small part' is pretty small indeed.

As for investigation into the sighted response, I think audio researchers seem to have enough knowledge of such investigations to have a firm opinion: it's all over the shop, and it's a big issue! There are some generalities, such as a big or expensive or exotic or home brand speaker that is clearly, unambiguously less preferred in controlled conditions, suddenly being preferred in sighted conditions, with similar unambiguity. So, the sighted response is incredibly strong. But any one individual could have the opposite cognitive bias and result on these 'common' factors, plus any kind of bias in relation to any number of individually-specific non-sonic factors, eg a bias against red, or a bias for red, etc ad infinitum.

Let's bring this back to vinyl. It is at least slightly ironic that one corner of Toole's research would be leveraged into an argument in favour of the sonics of vinyl. Ironic because Toole's views on the sonic merits of vinyl, compared to modern digital alternatives, are entirely negative. And that's just comparing 2-channel to 2-channel, which is an unnecessary handicap on digital. It's not even a discussion. And apparently everyone in this discussion already knows that. One wonders what people are trying to prove by raising some of these points.

So, back to your words above, what exactly do we have to be careful about, after the above discussion?

• Be careful about saying that everyone has to prefer the sound of digital over vinyl in sighted listening at home? Of course! I would never argue that. Non-sonic factors will have a huge influence, and vinyl has the edge in non-sonic appeal for a very large number of people, and that will sway their choice on perceived sound quality.
• Be careful about saying that everyone would prefer exactly the same frequency response in controlled listening tests? Of course! I would never argue that either. Firstly, there is the all-too-large cohort of people in this hobby or profession with significant hearing damage (beyond normal age-related decline). This cohort is almost lost to the cause: they can't even be consistent with themselves. Secondly, there is a clear finding coming from the research, that bass level needs to be adjusted to taste for each individual to find their own preference. It will 'always' be preferred if smoothened, and if extended, but the preferred level will vary. Thirdly, even above the bass, room attributes might be strong enough that a speaker with a flat axial response could be more preferred by tweaking that axial response in a (compromised) attempt to counter, say, a very live room, or severe reflections in undesirable positions. Conclusion: it is too much to insist to a specific reader that, in a controlled test, he or she absolutely would prefer, say, the best Genelec with a pre-specified bass level, in their own home. (And, extending this point to vinyl in the next dot point...)
• Be careful about saying that, if only they would do controlled listening tests, everyone would prefer the sonics of digital over vinyl? Of course! I would never argue that either. Much of the above dot point comes into play here too. Plus, the cartridge response might just compensate for the owner's speakers' response. And so many have not EQ'd the bass, so ugly modal resonances come into play, and having a source that doesn't play those resonances so hard might be a relief. Conclusion: there are numerous ways that it would be entirely understandable for any one individual to prefer vinyl over digital sonics, even in controlled listening. It would simply be wrong to insist otherwise.

I have said all the same things in this thread before, in different ways and in bits and pieces, but hey, primacy and recency and all that, so it's worth putting it together here.

cheers

 

[MattHooper]

It is 3 am and here we are dealing with multiple personalities who all think they own the high ground in this thread. This thread is not some antithetical secret attack on the “virtues and purity” of what ASR stands for. Our mission is to teach and reveal truths about the Audio Reproduction Science. Is there a small place for “The Nostalgic” ? I want to think that both can exist at the same time. We all have different tastes in music. We all have different desires when it comes to how we choose to consume music. It doesn’t always have to be a certain way or it’s wrong because you are not getting the purity or best of the SOTA perfection. When some music. Actually a great deal of it, was created and recorded. The current SOTA was vinyl and tape. Was the vinyl “Master” a representation of what the Artist(s) intended? Maybe it was. Do some want to recreate that nostalgic moment/feeling in their own way and homes? Is doing that a disparaging way to thumb your nose at Science and Audio Engineering and Technology that exists today? I could use dozens of modern day examples of why many people prefer older technology in Cars/Boats/Aircraft/Homes/Art. As Teachers we need to realize that nothing in this world is pure “Black and White”.

This Thread continues to be a major point of contention, argument and overheated interactions that are creating an environment that is becoming more and more hostile and toxic. This is not a good example of how to treat each other with mutual respect and dignity. This is a constant source of strife, hate and resentment. I am closing this thread tonight and all 3 Moderators will be reviewing what has been said here in the next few hours/days to make a group decision on what we need to do next here. It’s abundantly clear that this current state of affairs can not be permitted to continue. Some of you have pushed us into a corner and are forcing the Moderators to intervene. Take the night to step back and ask yourself. Am I proud of my posts? Have I honestly engaged in dialog that is fair and non hostile towards others. Have I allowed my emotions to get in the way and have I treated everyone else in a respectful and dignified manner?

We have been given no other choice but to step in and make decisions. We try our damned best to stay out of the way and not interfere with the free flow of thoughts and ideas. That approach seems to work well for the other 99% of the Treads and Conversations here. But apparently this particular thread makes this impossible. So decide we will. There will be outcomes now that are not going to be pleasant for some and you are putting us in a very uncomfortable and unpleasant position. Whatever we ultimately decide. Remember this. We tried like hell to stay out of this and let you all figure this out yourselves.

It’s late and not all the Staff are up and ready to deal with this. So, please excuse us for the closure and give us the time to figure this out. Thank you to the Peacemakers who tried to use their voices to lower the temperature and cause participants a moment to reflect and slow their roll. We appreciate your efforts. You know who you are and We know who you are. For now goodnight.

On Edit: We have made our decision and this thread is reopened for your enjoyment. Happy Saturday Crew.

Magnanimous! And brave!

I’ve put Sal on ignore which I think should reduce some friction (he and I tend to spin our wheels). Should I engage Newman I’m happy to do so in good faith, and have made an offer/suggestion that we engage points directly without going into characterizations about the other person. Hopefully he will respond in kind.

Cheers, you rockin’ Overlords!

 

[Count Dacula]

That's just a self-validating equation, it doesn't tell you anything about the world, just about how you define it.

Philosophy of science - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Todd68]

Here’s a thought, some old recordings done before the digital age sound awesome and some of the newest stuff is not impressive at all. I guess the recording engineers and ability are more important than the technology that was is available.

 

[A.wayne]

Mic & Recording Music is an art as much tech , a lost art in this Digital era where there’s a software fix and update for every *k up.

 

[Count Dacula]

The CD failed to kill off analog LP , streaming hasnt made a dent in LP sales , its obvious why ..


Stay tuned for part 4 ...

It depends on what you consider a "dent", and if kicking a dead horse really matters at all.

It's 2024, not 1924. Do you think vinyl is really a 200 year format? I'm sure plenty of ASR people picture their kids rocking the old turntable and LPs...but the're just romanticizing it....picturing themselves as some post-apocalyptic dusty Mad Maxx or Snake Pliskin when it'll actually be more like Blade Runner or Logan's Run.

 

[MattHooper]

Hi Newman. As I mentioned, I’m ready for a reset. I think it’s quite possible for us to engage each of this points without going into characterizations about the other person. I promise to do my best in that regard.

I hope you also agree, that it’s better to directly address the points somebody has made, rather than speaking in more abstract characterizations to other people and not replying to the actual person. That risks maintaining misapprehensions where we aren’t keeping ourselves open for correction or better understanding.

So with that in mind:

I have previously described how Matt's profession gets in the way of his accepting widely-accepted truths in certain subject areas.

Could you point to even one of these widely accepted truths that I have denied?

Toole has also written about audio/sound professionals being nothing special in their audio assessments, based on tests not just his opinion, and being prone to having wrong understandings about sound reproduction, even those who work as sound consultants. Also, blatant bias, such as sound engineers who have become famous mastering pop-rock on vinyl, saying things about vinyl vs digital that are utter rubbish.

Since that is supposed to be relevant to assessing my position: Can you please point to any instance where I have shown a
“ wrong understanding about sound reproduction?” Either related to my profession or otherwise?

Or where I have said anything about vinyl versus digital, that is utter rubbish?

Suggesting other audio professionals may have said daft things does nothing to establish whether I have said daft things. So it’s more helpful to stick to what I’ve actually claimed.

Cheers

 

[MattHooper]

As to this:

Oh wait: anything good to say. You mean a Vinyl Love thread. Funny, this thread never was that, nor by intention.

I agree!

I’ve said from the very beginning that I don’t think this thread requires a participant to say good things about vinyl! The very OP starts off with negative comments about vinyl! All opinions are fair game, of course.

To repeat what I’ve said earlier in the thread;

Anyone should be able to write whatever they want in this thread. As I've said before, in terms of how I respond to posts, I have no qualm whatsoever with anyone who even flat out hates vinyl, so long as they are speaking for themselves (and aren't overreaching with claimed facts). "For me vinyl sucks, it's antiquated technology, it's a lower fidelity medium than digital, it's a hassle, it suffers all sorts of technical and sonic liabilities like noise artifacts, raised noise floor, I hate ticks and pops and crackle, it's limited in dynamic and frequency range, I hate wow and flutter, setting up cartridges, keeping records clean...etc...it all sucks, sucks, sucks!"

To that my attitude is: Ok, cool. I totally understand. Those are all liabilities that ruin it for you, and it would be really silly for YOU to play vinyl records.

It's only if someone starts generalizing their claims, as if it's just as silly for others to enjoy vinyl, or implying they are suckers, or to even enjoy the sound, and to make claims about the nature of vinyl where I have another view. Then, I'll add my point of view as counterbalance.

HOWEVER: I have argued that while it’s totally reasonable to acknowledge vinyl liabilities, strictly concentrating on those liabilities is not going to get us to an understanding of the Vinyl Renaissance.
And that was the original theme of the thread: understanding the vinyl Renaissance and why it’s happening.

To do that, we have to look at what POSITIVE experiences and features vinyl enthusiast tell us they are getting out of the experience. We will have to uncover and discuss what possible virtues vinyl holds for people, to understand the phenomenon.

And thus that is largely where I have put my own efforts in the thread: since I’m indulging in the vinyl Renaissance myself, I’m explaining what I get out of playing records, and I’ve been doing my best to provide evidence of what other vinyl enthusiast say on this matter.

 

[AdamG]

Magnanimous! And brave!

I’ve put Sal on ignore which I think should reduce some friction (he and I tend to spin our wheels). Should I engage Newman I’m happy to do so in good faith, and have made an offer/suggestion that we engage points directly without going into characterizations about the other person. Hopefully he will respond in kind.

Cheers, you rockin’ Overlords!

You are welcome and invited to engage any and all takers. As long as we are all demonstrating respect and dignity for the members we address, we will have no further problems. Civil discourse is what drives the scientific community and greater understanding of Audio Science specifically.

Members whom are unable to follow this rule will be removed from the discussion.

 

[Snoopy]

It depends on what you consider a "dent", and if kicking a dead horse really matters at all.

It's 2024, not 1924. Do you think vinyl is really a 200 year format? I'm sure plenty of ASR people picture their kids rocking the old turntable and LPs...but the're just romanticizing it....picturing themselves as some post-apocalyptic dusty Mad Maxx or Snake Pliskin when it'll actually be more like Blade Runner or Logan's Run.

I don’t see why not… plenty of those LPs that are today 50-60 years old are still getting reissued on Vinyl , and the original first pressings go for prices that would bring tears to your eyes and wallet as well.

I don’t see that suddenly going away.
And theoretically a LP should still work in another 100 years from now. But CDs and even DVDs and Blu-ray’s will more likely then not suffer from disc rot.

A turntable is so easy to manufacture and repair so this won’t be a issue either.. but try to find replacement parts for a SACD player today.. who Knows in another 50 years those might be a rarity