Can anyone explain the vinyl renaissance?

[Sal1950]

Now I have 3188 on file

Cuts or whole albums?

 

[drewdawg999]

I'm going to add this, I don't know if it's truly relevant, or if it's been covered (if it has, my apologies). I'm a former economics teacher, and I can tell you that owning records, or CD's for that matter, makes very little economic sense. Let's assume that the SQ is equal between records and streaming (yes, yes, I know...). So, you spend $25 on your favorite album. Take it home, enjoy the hell out of it for about 5 times. Put it in your record rack and forget about it. Did you really get your money's worth? Really?? OK, so you go down to your record shop and try to sell it. You'll be lucky to get $5 for it. You've had a little satisfaction and you've lost $20. Does that make sense? And then there's the hassle cost. Say you move. If you have 20 LP's, no problem. But if you have 500, BIG PROBLEM. Those things can get heavy, and u have to lug them around, place to place. Who wants to do that? Same with CD's. And, if you pass away (HOPE YOU DON'T!!) where are they going? They are going to be someone else's problem, that's what. The only reason people put up with it for so long? Records and CD's were the only game in town. That said, every now and then I buy an album. But streaming is the way to go, by far. And if you factor in the superior sound quality, it becomes very clear.

It doesn't have to make economic sense. It's a labor of love, and love makes no sense at all. The trick is not to listen just 5 times, more like 1000. Yes, only buy albums that you'll listen the hell out of. And for reselling you should take your wares to Discogs, and wait a while for the right buyer to come along. And no I'm not moving again, last time it was I believe five extremely heavy boxes full of vinyl that got the movers furious. They stacked the boxes against my wishes, I was a nervous wreck, but luckily no damage occurred. Don't have a streamer, no internet at the house with the stereo system, so just my cell phone over BT, which sounds fine but comes with many ads. But I am proudly subscription free, can't squeeze blood from a rock.

 

[Sal1950]

I have consumed a lot of time bookmarking YouTube music videos. Now I have 3188 on file and I am tickled pink. I appreciate getting more bookmarks from our music thread.

I stream or download multiples of the same song and find the good sounding ones.

Cuts or whole albums?

Ah, I do understand now, we're kind of talking a apples and oranges deal, not that it's really that important to some.

The oft leveled criticism of streaming is the appearance and disappearance of the different mastering-remastering of complete albums. Of the "albums" I love, I have over 4,000 on my drives of what I consider the best of the best done over the decades. Say Floyds Dark Side as an example, I have it in a few different 2ch masterings, a Alan Parsons mastered Quad, 2 different 5.1, and a Atmos. I can listen to any one I might chose at any time and never have to worry about one disappearing off the streamers or utube servers. Things that may not be important to some.

 

[Doodski]

Cuts or whole albums?

Both. Pink Floyd is whole albums and cuts, AC-DC etc. The classics. I had 34k mp3 and flac music files of albums and cuts but I had a catastrophic event and lost them all.

 

[Holmz]

Sure, that's exactly what got us to where we are today. Top shelf marketing for everything from cables, to tubes, and then back to vinyl because it has proven to be such a cash cow.
Read my signature one more time everyone please, it's this kind of crap being accepted as Great Hi Fi that got us where we are today.

Jez bro, take a pill, or come up for a breath, or something.

This is 2024 my friends, If the measurements say the component is garbage, it's garbage.

Agree, but…
Saying that a DAC with 90 dB SINAD is garbage compared to one that is 120 dB, is not the same as 50dB.
The definition of garage seems to be the next one that will be at 130dB…

I couldn't give a rodents behind how much you may enjoy listening to garbage, that's your right. But it still remains to be garbage that you’re listening to. If you prefer to go to McDonalds after closing and eat out of their garbage cans, that's also your right, it's just definitely one freedom I'll choose to pass by on. There's just so much better Food and High Fidelity Component paths to follow.

There are still things like filters, etc. that are affecting the sound.

I am not saying that one should choose that 50 dB SINAD unit, but at some point if the 90dB SINAD unit is being affected by some filter settings of some intentional harmonic structuring, and it can be indentified in an ABX test… and preferred…
Then why is that happening?
What is making people liking that stuff?

I am not talking about some 50dB SINAD unit that hisses like a pack of viper and costs 50k as being better.
Nor am I talking about units that cannot be ABX’ed being labelled as gorgeous and better.
I am talking about units that are able to be ABX’ed, and pretty good measurements wise, and why the one with a lower SINAD is prefered?

Which admittedly has little to do with vinyl, other than maybe the 50dB virtual DAC might be a TT.

 

[OldHvyMec]

But if you have 500, BIG PROBLEM. Those things can get heavy, and u have to lug them around, place to place. Who wants to do that? Same with CD's. And, if you pass away (HOPE YOU DON'T!!) where are they going?

You really think weight has anything to do with a hobby where speakers can weigh 75-800 lbs? A power amp can weigh 100 lbs or a turntable, plinth
and base can weigh 500lbs?

Have you seen people that collect cannonballs?

I've lived in the same house for 40+ years why on earth would I be moving anything? I hope my kids are worn out moving my crap when I die and it takes
them 3 months. I love my kids to no end, BUT I just don't like them very much as I get older. The older I get the more I like the dog, rabbit, chickens, and
the goat.

My grandson that's a different story. He's a kick in the pants. He's better than eatin' bugs!

Regards

 

[Dz1]

Vinyl vs CD frequency response

As shown in the above video, vinyl has a greater frequency range than CD. This may be why some people prefer to listen to vinyl.

 

[Newman]

You need to read more on this forum.
Especially the stuff about human thresholds of hearing.

 

[Count Dacula]

I have over 1000 (mainly) dance music records. And all I can say is that the short-runtime (below 8 minutes per side) 45 rpm format is the best technically possible. Superior dynamics and especially frequency range. Various 80s pressings are nothing but utter weaksauce in terms of any audible parameter. The audible quality on the record needs to be able to being picked up by the neddle. As long as the needle's physical capabilities aren't exceeded, this means as loud as possible. Which is inherently limited by the record, its groove sizes, and mastering and cutting technology - which is pretty much stuck in the 70s. Only slightly exaggerated.

There's a good reason why the good old 18 or even 30 minutes per side 33rpm album format has been practically eliminated decades ago. Thousands of loud as fuck Techno records (which btw enabled vinyl to economically survive past the 90s and 2000s) have told everyone better, including the audiophiles relevant in record production. The inherent limitations of the physical format simply dictate it. Worst case scenario you're listening to 10-bit equivalent musical data bandlimited to 15kHz or less. And here comes the kicker:

Like I was saying, dance music DJs saved vinyl, not nerdy tech debates.

My point is, I also noticed how bad pressing were getting in the 1980s. I wonder if it was an intentional marketing strategy to elevate CDs to the defacto format. Record companies saw more profit off a CD, and just invested $$$ in the CD production facilities, with a similar investment in DVDs on the horizon. With oil and plastic costs going thru the roof, it almost makes sense for them to let bad LP masters and pressings "happen".

 

[Count Dacula]

Why not?
What makes distortion more enjoyable for many people?
Is that not a scientific question?

People are familiar with a softer and more distorted sound.

 

[Robin L]

Like I was saying, dance music DJs saved vinyl, not nerdy tech debates.

My point is, I also noticed how bad pressing were getting in the 1980s. I wonder if it was an intentional marketing strategy to elevate CDs to the defacto format. Record companies saw more profit off a CD, and just invested $$$ in the CD production facilities, with a similar investment in DVDs on the horizon. With oil and plastic costs going thru the roof, it almost makes sense for them to let bad LP masters and pressings "happen".

There were lots of times that bad pressings could regularly be expected. Everest started out as an audiophile Classical label, with some of the tape masters on 35mm film. They descended into a label with lots of out-of copyright recordings, airchecks and the like, pressed on the noisiest of vinyl. Similarly, Vox/Turnabout always had miserable pressings. It wasn't until I heard Alfred Brendel's first cycle of Beethoven's piano music in the Brilliant Classics CD box of all of Beethoven's music that I could hear how well recorded that cycle really is. RCA Victor started out as industry leaders with their first stereo LPs. Then, with "Dynagroove", the recordings were compressed. Later, with "Dynaflex", there was so little actual vinyl in the pressings that a very large percentage of the LPs were returned as defective because of warps. The pretty good EMI classical LPs of England turned into the pretty awful Angel LPs of the United States. And that's just the Classical records side of things. I didn't hear Japanese pressings until the late 1970s. Though the bulk of them had an excess of treble content, they uniformly had noise-free vinyl and pressings of appropriate thickness. They also uniformly went for nearly twice the price of US pressings.

In any case, cassettes had overtaken sales of LPs by the 1980s and record retailers were very excited when CDs first appeared, as the margin on the product could be consistently higher - few discounts on CDs when they were first rolled out - and the retail price of CDs was usually twice that of LPs. Even as late as 2000, CDs of popular artists like Britney Spears were sold at full price when released, which was pretty close to $20, as I recall. Ironic, now that Britney's used CDs sell for pennies on the dollar. I'm going to guess that LP pressing quality is probably higher now than when CDs first appeared, but I'm not about to go back to that particular black hole of collecting and disappointment to find out.

 

[Dz1]

You need to read more on this forum.
Especially the stuff about human thresholds of hearing.

So we are not accepting the research by Oohashi on inaudible higher frequencies affecting the brain?

If that research is dismissed here then that is not a great look for the people of this forum because you can easily try the experiment for yourselves before dismissing the research.

It is quite easy to do. Just try listening to music with the ultrasonic frequencies in place and then listen again to the same music without the frequencies and you should quickly notice the difference. You can add these ultrasonic frequencies easily to any digital music of CD quality and below as that is the music that is missing these frequencies. As I showed in the previous video, vinyl is not missing these frequencies.

If people dismiss this without even bothering to try the experiment for themselves, then it's pointless keeping this thread open imo.

 

[Robin L]

So we are not accepting the research by Oohashi on inaudible higher frequencies affecting the brain?

If that research is dismissed here then that is not a great look for the people of this forum because you can easily try the experiment for yourselves before dismissing the research.

It is quite easy to do. Just try listening to music with the ultrasonic frequencies in place and then listen again to the same music without the frequencies and you should quickly notice the difference. You can add these ultrasonic frequencies easily to any digital music of CD quality and below as that is the music that is missing these frequencies. As I showed in the previous video, vinyl is not missing these frequencies.

If people dismiss this without even bothering to try the experiment for themselves, then it's pointless keeping this thread open imo.

Although it's true that the LP format is capable of encoding ultrasonic frequencies, it is also true that the bulk of recordings transcribed to vinyl do not have ultrasonic information. Much of the ultrasonic content of LPs is just noise, as in surface noise or tape hiss. And the Oohashi research has already been discussed here on another thread, with the bulk of respondents saying Oohashi's conclusions are not proven.

I made a sample rate blind-test (192 vs 48)

I remember doing a similar test years ago with this track and i though the 192 version was better (9 times out of 10) https://www.mediafire.com/folder/u2ja7bkonannf/sample_rate_blidntest I used audacity to downsample and upsample (for the 48 KS/s version). I used https://www.random.org/...

www.audiosciencereview.com

 

[antcollinet]

So we are not accepting the research by Oohashi on inaudible higher frequencies affecting the brain?

If that research is dismissed here then that is not a great look for the people of this forum because you can easily try the experiment for yourselves before dismissing the research.

It is quite easy to do. Just try listening to music with the ultrasonic frequencies in place and then listen again to the same music without the frequencies and you should quickly notice the difference. You can add these ultrasonic frequencies easily to any digital music of CD quality and below as that is the music that is missing these frequencies. As I showed in the previous video, vinyl is not missing these frequencies.

If people dismiss this without even bothering to try the experiment for themselves, then it's pointless keeping this thread open imo.

Why don't you prepare two files, compare them level matched and statistically relevant in delta wave, or foobar and post your results to demonstrate you can hear a difference, then post the files so others can replicate your results.

Obviously it should be demonstrable that the only difference between the files is in the ultrasonics.

 

[Count Dacula]

Closing this thread would be the best thing since sliced bread, for the rational audiophile.

It's like a big handbag fight over nothing.

 

[Count Dacula]

There's a part of Stoicism I believe in where, "the heart follows the head" (my quote)

That is, instead of reacting inside your head to your feelings and instant misperceptions, you let your feelings be guided by objective facts which you discern over time. Part of that is changing your mind when facts overtake feelings. Older generations were proud of being stubborn, it was considered a virtue. Do smart people do that, or are they willing to change their minds...? Their music format...? It's a serious question, because the old recordings seem to appeal demographically to the Stubborn Generation....right?!

So, I let the knowledge that I'm listening to the most accurate playback guide my feelings about it. If it's objectively good, it's subjectively good.

 

[MattHooper]

There were lots of times that bad pressings could regularly be expected. Everest started out as an audiophile Classical label, with some of the tape masters on 35mm film. They descended into a label with lots of out-of copyright recordings, airchecks and the like, pressed on the noisiest of vinyl. Similarly, Vox/Turnabout always had miserable pressings. It wasn't until I heard Alfred Brendel's first cycle of Beethoven's piano music in the Brilliant Classics CD box of all of Beethoven's music that I could hear how well recorded that cycle really is. RCA Victor started out as industry leaders with their first stereo LPs. Then, with "Dynagroove", the recordings were compressed. Later, with "Dynaflex", there was so little actual vinyl in the pressings that a very large percentage of the LPs were returned as defective because of warps. The pretty good EMI classical LPs of England turned into the pretty awful Angel LPs of the United States. And that's just the Classical records side of things. I didn't hear Japanese pressings until the late 1970s. Though the bulk of them had an excess of treble content, they uniformly had noise-free vinyl and pressings of appropriate thickness. They also uniformly went for nearly twice the price of US pressings.

In any case, cassettes had overtaken sales of LPs by the 1980s and record retailers were very excited when CDs first appeared, as the margin on the product could be consistently higher - few discounts on CDs when they were first rolled out - and the retail price of CDs was usually twice that of LPs. Even as late as 2000, CDs of popular artists like Britney Spears were sold at full price when released, which was pretty close to $20, as I recall. Ironic, now that Britney's used CDs sell for pennies on the dollar. I'm going to guess that LP pressing quality is probably higher now than when CDs first appeared, but I'm not about to go back to that particular black hole of collecting and disappointment to find out.

Robin,

You bring a wealth of experience and knowledge about past technology - from recording to release formats. Great details.
I always appreciate it!

 

[Dz1]

Why don't you prepare two files, compare them level matched and statistically relevant in delta wave, or foobar and post your results to demonstrate you can hear a difference, then post the files so others can replicate your results.

Obviously it should be demonstrable that the only difference between the files is in the ultrasonics.

I like that suggestion but will have to look into how to prepare such files because I just don't know how to do it. If I can figure it out then I will return to show my results.

 

[Robin L]

Robin,

You bring a wealth of experience and knowledge about past technology - from recording to release formats. Great details.
I always appreciate it!

I spent many years working in stores that sold LPs. When those stores started selling CDs, I often exchanged promos of CDs for LPs and continued to buy LPs until about 2018 or so. I wasn't convinced that CDs could sound really good until 1994, when I got the t.c. Electronics M2000 digital signal processer, 20 bit capable and intended primarily as an effects box, but a really good ADC and an even better DAC. Thousands of LPs passed through my "collection" during those years, including white label promos and imports from many different parts of Europe. As I lived and worked in Berkeley during the transition from LPs and Cassettes to CDs and worked in a specialist CD store that had two people (myself and Joseph Spencer) with regular radio shows, we both had access to a lot of promo CDs. Amoeba and Rasputin's were just down a few blocks on Telegraph from The Musical Offering (on Bancroft) and I probably showed up at those two stores at least twice a week. When I moved to Fresno there was an outpost of Rasputin's, so I still had a source of used, cheap, LPs. Was a real vinyl junkie for many years.

I understand why Sal is frustrated with the LP format - in part because he probably didn't have his gear set up ideally - but at the same time I'm also aware that under the right circumstances LPs can sound more than good enough. And he is a surround sound enthusiast - LPs are useless for surround sound. However, in my current situation there simply isn't enough room for LPs and turntables. Also (and this is very important) the CD playback gear I'm now using has better resolution than any LP playback gear I have owned. LPs ranged from awful to surprisingly good. But CDs run from ok to awesome. At least in my experience with the gear I have owned.

 

[krabapple]

For what it’s worth, I thought he was actually making a distinction between Hooper/other ASR vinyl fans and a particular subset of the “vinylphile” community, not lumping them together — perhaps trying to explain (I wouldn’t go so far as to say apologize for) the often misdirected frustration shown here towards people who simply enjoy listening to records and don’t make claims about sonic superiority.

Just when I was losing faith...someone gets it. Thank you.