Can anyone explain the vinyl renaissance?

[levimax]

how to make pressings that are in the -80dB noise floor ballpark, making the playback electronics the noise floor.

I don't disagree with much of your post but -80 dB seems hard to believe and I have certainly never experienced anything like that. Are you talking -80 dB with some type of "weighting" or a real honest -80 dB nose floor? Please provide some sources for this claim. Thanks.

 

[Anton D]

I suffer from hyperacusis, so a close Harley can literally cause my hearing to be f*cked up for days, weeks, months. South Park got this one right. I've often wondered what a Harley rider would think if someone popped up beside them and blew an air-horn in their ears. "What's the problem? Blowing air horns randomly in public beside people is my hobby! I like it. So what if the noise bothers you?!"

If you want some objective worries, just check out motorcycling and hearing loss. What Hi Fi giveth, motorcycling taketh away.

Study Shows Hearing Loss From Motorcycle Riding

A new study from Germany highlights some frightening data about Noise Induced Hearing Loss (NIHL) from riding a motorcycle without earplugs.

scootsafely.com

Can riding a motorcycle without earplugs cause hearing damage?

I've heard claims before that when riding a motorcycle, wind noise (especially on the highway) is loud enough that it will cause eventual hearing loss. Personally, I ride a motorcycle, and I usually

skeptics.stackexchange.com

 

[Anton D]

I have been wondering , as a thought exercise what is the purpose of continuing this conversation - sure, it is fun to argue and quite frankly, I started arguing in internet forums during the pandemic! Started doing it instead of watching TV!

BUT, again, as merely an opinion, what is the end game/goal here? Please let's look at the facts: myself, @MattHooper, we are here, we are ASR Members. I have said it many times before and will say again, I (and probably Matt) are under no delusions - I have never argued Sound Quality, Platform Superiority, or anything like that. That would be dumb. I am technically proficient enough to know that is not the case.I JUST LIKE IT. PERIOD. SIMPLE. I know Matt have posted stuff along the same lines.

But really, what is the end game? Specifically what does @Sal1950 want? I mean, my above statement kind of says he is right. But it is not quite enough, is it? what do you want me to do? to apologize for a personal preference? to throw away my vinyl ? Kind of switch sides and start proselytizing against the format? Not gonna do that because an internet handle tells me so.

There are many things that are a waste of investment capital, @Sal1950 and yet we do them we are fortunate to afford them and they are fun TO US. Do you own a luxury car? A waste, and a really dumb IMHO. Same for sports cars. Harleys. Spending money on a ticket for an American Football game. All a waste, IMHO.

Again, notice that, "IMHO" - if you love your Mercedes, Beemer, Caddy, Porsche, Ferrari, Harley or the Dallas Cowboys, knock yourself out - YOU DO YOU!

I beg of the moderators to close this thread.

This is a life and death battle for Hi Fi legitimacy. If you like the 'wrong' things, you are out of the clique.

I get a chuckle when we have engineers who are suddenly amazed by something like 'discovering' imaging and it can't generate discussion...

What does it mean when a speaker sounds like this..... ?

I'm a mechanical engineer and in recent years have started paying more attention to speakers after years of general listening to music. I'm interested in the science and frequency response along with other aspects of a "good" speaker. But I have a hard time following reviews of people who...

www.audiosciencereview.com

...but mention playing a record is enjoyable and all the Statler and Waldorf's get verklempt.

Is it an authoritarian thing?

My vote is to enjoy analog and digital.

 

[Newman]

I JUST LIKE IT. PERIOD. SIMPLE….what do you want me to do? to apologize for a personal preference? …I beg of the moderators to close this thread.

As long as they don’t close it with your post, on a science forum. That would mean we can close EVERY thread here with “well I like it so MYOFB”.

Every review thread here, all Amir’s threads with headless panthers, can be closed after post #2 where someone says “well I like it, so MYOFB Amir, mods can now close this thread”.

 

[Newman]

...but mention playing a record is enjoyable and all the Statler and Waldorf's get verklempt.

To be fair the OP actually mentioned his view that playing a record isn’t enjoyable enough to justify the renaissance, and that’s when the sky fell in.

And when anyone agrees with him, the sky falls all over again.

See, it works both ways.

 

[MattHooper]

To be fair the OP actually mentioned his view that playing a record isn’t enjoyable enough to justify the renaissance, and that’s when the sky fell in.

And when anyone agrees with him, the sky falls all over again.

See, it works both ways.

I think you missed that he was responding to Sal, who wasn't just giving an opinion that he didn't care for records, but was propounding why others are wasting their money on vinyl. And the constant disparagement of vinyl enthusiasm.

Whereas virtually no one here feels the need to constantly disparage other people's choice of digital sources.

So, no, it doesn't go both ways.

 

[HammersRocco]

As long as they don’t close it with your post, on a science forum. That would mean we can close EVERY thread here with “well I like it so MYOFB”.

Every review thread here, all Amir’s threads with headless panthers, can be closed after post #2 where someone says “well I like it, so MYOFB Amir, mods can now close this thread”.

Oh sure - BUT, you have to read the thread... and the title! There is an implication in the title that the vinyl renaissance makes no sense - and many times we have been, "yeah, you are RIGHT, it makes no sense! but I like it". After almost 300 pages, it seems TO ME is that a couple of peeps won't stop until someone say OH I'M SORRY I bow down to you and your superior intellect. I am not saying that to a nobody on the internet!

 

[Anton D]

Oh sure - BUT, you have to read the thread... and the title! There is an implication in the title that the vinyl renaissance makes no sense - and many time we have been, "yeah, you are RIGHT, it makes no sense! but I like it". After almost 300 pages, it seems TO ME is that a couple of peeps won't stop until someone say OH I'M SORRY I bow down to you and your superior intellect. I am not saying that to a nobody on the internet!

Only the end of the "vinyl renaissance" will satisfy some.

 

[MattHooper]

Oh sure - BUT, you have to read the thread... and the title! There is an implication in the title that the vinyl renaissance makes no sense - and many time we have been, "yeah, you are RIGHT, it makes no sense! but I like it". After almost 300 pages, it seems TO ME is that a couple of peeps won't stop until someone say OH I'M SORRY I bow down to you and your superior intellect. I am not saying that to a nobody on the internet!

Only the end of the "vinyl renaissance" will satisfy some.

Oh they'll be ok with an ASR member playing vinyl.

But it has to be on their terms. You have to come, hat in hand, bended knee first, admitting how inferior vinyl is to digital. So as to make it some admittedly
flaky pastime, not what a serious audiophile would engage in.

Doesn't matter how many times we agree that digital is the principle superior medium for maintaining accuracy. Just don't dare express enthusiasm for the sound, or bring in any nuances that could possibly sometimes muddy those firm lines in the sand.

Some people need to see big, thick black lines between positions...gray areas need not apply.

 

[IPunchCholla]

Oh sure - BUT, you have to read the thread... and the title! There is an implication in the title that the vinyl renaissance makes no sense - and many time we have been, "yeah, you are RIGHT, it makes no sense! but I like it". After almost 300 pages, it seems TO ME is that a couple of peeps won't stop until someone say OH I'M SORRY I bow down to you and your superior intellect. I am not saying that to a nobody on the internet!

I tried apologizing for sometimes liking playing music using vinyl as the source upthread. It didn’t work.

 

[Galliardist]

https://www.rolex.com/watches/new-watches

Mechanical watches, now there's a renaissance in"inferior hardware".

Vinyl is a nothing by comparison. You can buy "superior" mechanical watches in a city centre store practically anywhere. I can't say that for a decent turntable in any Australian city any more, it's all banished to the suburbs and industrial parks. There is one serious dedicated store selling CDs and vinyl records in the centre of Sydney that I'm aware of (i.e. that doesn't sell fridges or mobile phones as well). There are eighteen dedicated high end watch sellers and two other jewellery stores with an emphasis on selling watches.

It is not a renaissance, it's a continuing subculture that has attracted a few moneyed audiophiles in and has gained a status that is still way beyond its actual use.

The cause of the annoyance here is that:, people who use more accurate timepieces or get the time off their phones are not really troubled by the existence of the mechanical watch culture, or vice versa: the Rolex claims about making ever more superlative timepieces don't stand up to measurement against the cheapest quartz watch, but the claims live in a different universe.

Claims of superior LP sound can't do that because you still need the rest of the same system that a digital source uses: on top of that, many of the main purveyors of "knowledge" see their interest as being in vhsampioning the LP space rather than the digital space, and then insist on the equivalent of time telling in the digital space being more nuanced between the equivalent of two identical quartz watches.

On top of that, while you can just buy a quartz or GPS linked watch and use it, you still have the problems of proper setup to get either a digital or analogue setup to work, properly: which means that any space where that aspect is discussed is just going to run into the problem of claims and counter claims. If you use both, you have to live in both spaces, and I guess both sides have to put up with your reasons for doing that.

And of course, playing an LP even on the cheapest player "tells you the time", let alone the good ones actually making much more of a difference in their purpose, than with actually operating a decent or expensive mechanical watch.

Now, since this place and attitudes here are in part a response to a form of audio apartheid, I'm not going to recommend trying to separate vinyl into its own space or anything dumb like that. I guess some discretion and less trolling is called for.

This thread does still get to examine stuff that is useful, in passing, People from both sides as it were, put to bed, again, the claims around vinyl being superior based on higher DR numbers without proper consideration in the last rush of posts here. I did call for it to be closed previously, I think I might have been wrong.







.

 

[MattHooper]

Time for a repeat of Hooper's Law: All audiophile threads, given enough time, will turn to talk about watches.

 

[Anton D]

Time for a repeat of Hooper's Law: All audiophile threads, given enough time, will turn to talk about watches.

I was hoping it would turn to wine, but that would require a miracle.

 

[IPunchCholla]

Rolex claims about making ever more superlative timepieces

While Rolex might claim to make superlative timepieces, I’ve never seen them claim their watches are more accurate than a cheap quartz watch. In fact in the specs for their movements they are up front about the inaccuracy. +- 2 secs a day for this one.

 

[Galliardist]

While Rolex might claim to make superlative timepieces, I’ve never seen them claim their watches are more accurate than a cheap quartz watch. In fact in the specs for their movements they are up front about the inaccuracy. +- 2 secs a day for this one.

Turntable manufacturers also publish specifications that belie any claim to technical superiority, but that doesn't then stop them claiming marvellous advances, or journalists coming straight out and claiming the opposite, does it?

Anyway, here's the claim from the new watches page I linked, the one most buyers will actually read:

With its latest creations, Rolex demonstrates its perpetual pursuit of excellence​

An ever-present challenge manifested in the brand’s ambition to perfect every component, question every method, and master every aspect of watchmaking expertise.
The new Rolex watches unveiled in 2023 illustrate a desire to reinvent while preserving a sense of continuity, to innovate while being mindful of tradition, and to leverage technology in daring to create. Only through exacting demands are exemplary timepieces formed.

Those claims may make sense in the mechanical watch space, but compared to a cheap quartz watch for the telling of time... they clearly do not value exemplary accuracy by the standards of a cheap quartz watch.

And of course we can ask ourselves a related question. If you were offered the choice of the cheapest Rolex, or a high status make smart watch at a similar price, as a gift, which would you take? Is accurate timekeeping or an expanded feature set of the most value to you, or the less definable value of the Rolex?

 

[Galliardist]

I think you missed that he was responding to Sal, who wasn't just giving an opinion that he didn't care for records, but was propounding why others are wasting their money on vinyl. And the constant disparagement of vinyl enthusiasm.

Whereas virtually no one here feels the need to constantly disparage other people's choice of digital sources.

So, no, it doesn't go both ways.

My digital source has been disparaged here, and I got subjected a long post with a list of all the biases I must have in order to have chosen it. And it's even listed in the good section of the SINAD chart.

 

[IPunchCholla]

Turntable manufacturers also publish specifications that belie any claim to technical superiority, but that doesn't then stop them claiming marvellous advances, or journalists coming straight out and claiming the opposite, does it?

Anyway, here's the claim from the new watches page I linked, the one most buyers will actually read:



Those claims may make sense in the mechanical watch space, but compared to a cheap quartz watch for the telling of time... they clearly do not value exemplary accuracy by the standards of a cheap quartz watch.

And of course we can ask ourselves a related question. If you were offered the choice of the cheapest Rolex, or a high status make smart watch at a similar price, as a gift, which would you take? Is accurate timekeeping or an expanded feature set of the most value to you, or the less definable value of the Rolex?

I wouldn’t have an issue with a turntable company saying an analogue thing in their marketing.

If it essentially boils down to “we own the manufacturing stack and produce the best the best thing in arena X” that’s fine. Do TT manufactures say the make the best turntable they can, at a set price point, or do they claim to provide the highest fidelity possible? I really don’t know, I don’t read TT marketing copy. I do care about published specs though.

Anyway. I have 5 or 6 mechanicals sitting in my nightstand drawer, because I’m always wearing my Apple Watch. I still sometimes like to play LPs.

 

[IPunchCholla]

My digital source has been disparaged here, and I got subjected a long post with a list of all the biases I must have in order to have chosen it. And it's even listed in the good section of the SINAD chart.

Really? Who was that? So weird.

 

[levimax]

While watch analogies are better than car analogies neither really fit vinyl. The thing about vinyl is that in some cases it can be prefered to other sources. This is of course subjective but there are some cases where I would be surprized if the vinyl version would not be preferred by most people in a legit blind test. An example is the original "AB pressing" of Steely Dan Aja. I have a NM copy of this LP as well the original Japan for US CD and the latest Hi-Res remaster from the original master tapes from Qobuz. They all sound great, I can reliably ABX between them, and I prefer the original LP.

If you combine preferred sound quality with the full size album art work with the fun of playing with physical media with the historical context of playing the original LP of an iconic album it can make for a compelling Hi-Fi experience. Not sure why this would be controversial or hard to understand.

 

[Newman]

I wouldn’t have an issue with a turntable company saying an analogue thing in their marketing. If it essentially boils down to “we own the manufacturing stack and produce the best the best thing in arena X” that’s fine. Do TT manufactures say the make the best turntable they can, at a set price point, or do they claim to provide the highest fidelity possible? I really don’t know, I don’t read TT marketing copy. I do care about published specs though.

How about my old post #3095?
"Experts agree that leading turntables provide a more satisfying musical experience than any digital counterparts. Unlike digital streaming & CD, there seems no limitation on the musical information that turntables can extract from vinyl."
"Turntables produce the Ultimate Sound Quality".
"Record players still reign supreme".
etc